North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

How do you fill and empty an ISO container? I’ve yet to see one with an open top and a means of tipping the contents. Having said that, I’d be happy to be told that they exist.
The coal landed at Immingham will come in something like 30,000 ton bulk carriers and be offloaded onto the dockside. From there it will be loaded into lorry’s for onward transport to the buyer.

 

I don’t think any record is kept of people walking away when they discover a diesel on the front end. However, anecdotal evidence from booking offices says it is not insignificant.

 

I don't know about the emptying, but I've been stood on the platform as a trainload of opentopped containers sped by, leaving a trail of dust in their wake.

 

Seems there is equipment out there that’s not dissimilar.

 

It's not just those walking away- it will be the disappointing experience for a number who do travel, including people with advance bookings, leading to people not returning, negative word-of-mouth or reviews etc


Jon

 

Why will it necessarily be a disappointment? 15 years ago I would have agreed, but not so much now. Indeed some non-enthusiasts will comment positively on the use of vintage diesels, and the reaction of the general public to the 150 on the MHR has been amazingly positive. For more and more there is less and less expectation of steam haulage, and I would suggest that outside of the enthusiast provided the visitor sees a steam engine at some point in the visit, they go home happy. Now, granted that might not be true of a railway promoting itself as 100% or nearly steam hauled, but….

 

We (as a family) have certainly not bothered travelling on a day at the NYMR when steam has been substituted by a diesel due to a lack of Steam availability as opposed to weather related restrictions.

 

The coal containers have a tarpaulin covered top and a front discharge door just like a lorry. The 20ft containers take 28 metric tonnes. Not sure how many there are in the UK but they do exist.
https://cargostore.com/coal-carrier-container/

 

I was looking at some reviews for another railway last night and the recent negative reviews were from people who had been expecting steam but got diesel.

Yes the balance may be shifting but for many steam is still the expectation

Jon

 

With the MHR (and a lot of other lines), the journeys are shorter and passengers have the opportunity to swap between trains so can experience steam and diesel. By prioritising the longer journey to Whitby so much the NYMR have got themselves into a pickle - partly through lack of locos but mainly due to "operational convenience", meaning steam on the most popular services (09.20 Pickering - Whitby and 17.10 return) seems to be a very rare occurrence. The only chance of being almost certain to get steam at some point is to reduce your time in Whitby to 3 hours by either arriving later or leaving early. If you do want to spend the whole day at Whitby, the only time passengers will see steam is passing it at Grosmont.

 

I think that's a flawed argument. Its not hard to see that the more successful heritage railways in terms of passenger numbers are the ones running steam. The NYMR now completely relies on Whitby for its 'draw'.

The NYMR used to pull people in because it ran a lot of steam engines and created 'theatre'. Now it pulls a lot of people in to go to Whitby, essentially an expensive park and ride through fantastic scenery (IMO). If you took Whitby away, and ran the amount of diesels they do, I am certain they would go bust.

During the Bridge 42 closure passenger numbers tanked. They were still a long heritage line compared to many, but they lost Whitby. If they had committed to running a lot of steam during that period (and advertised that fact) I suspect they would have been far better off, but no, top and tailed diesels for the majority of it (even when steam was run it was only on one end of the train and facing the wrong way in most cases). Result, very few passengers! Even with shorter trains lots of empty seats were clearly visible.

 

I agree with the base contention that finding diesel instead of steam will cause people to turn away, and have observed this myself at NYMR and elsewhere.

However, the argument above is circular and therefore flawed. It presumes an answer - steam - and doesn't consider the wider context.

I think in the context of NYMR it is a much simpler question, which is how demand for the whole line is maintained rather than just for Whitby. If people have no reason to want to travel through Newtondale, or to Goathland, then they won't come - because the NYMR's core proposition is travel to Whitby.

That's not to say that there isn't a question about the amount of steam used on the Moors, and how much what's delivered matches what the publicity sells.

 

I think the last part of @cksteam comment was well made though. You have a situation like Bridge 42 that has a massive impact on your operation and removes your key attraction. OK - what can you do? The answer surely has to be "how can we make what remains as enticing as possible?" Freed from the constraints of having to deal with Whitby in terms of suitable loss, carriages and paths, you could have used it as an opportunity to reimagine the railway, even if only for a few months until normal service was restored.

Or else you could run what appeared to be a desultory "Whitby service without going to Whitby" complete with diesels etc etc.

It's not as if Bridge 42 was a complete shock - we aren't talking something like the SVR staff waking up one morning in the middle of the season and finding an embankment had collapsed. Even if you take the company statements at face value, they knew the bridge was closing in December, and so had a good four months to really plan a steam-only service to Goathland that in frequency etc could have maximised the opportunity for passengers to explore the core railway.

Every railway has setbacks, but the question is how you respond to them. The opening months of this year do rather give the impression of a lack of imagination.

Tom

 

If i had driven from Tyneside, to NYMR, and it was diesel substitution, i would get on with it, and still make the journey, whether that to Whitby or Pickering, a couple of times we have taken the Northern service down to Whitby, then returned by a NYMR service. Dont know if that is still possible, but it proved a way to not be hamstrung by the NYMR timetable.
Its basically down to each persons expectations, i for one, just get on with it, and support anyway possible.
Once you are on site, cannot see the point of walking away...

 

I don't disagree that the NYMR need to make more of its other stations and be more imaginative with events etc. But I do believe that the main attraction to any heritage railway is the motive power. The NYMR have other features it can utilize once its got people there, but realistically you don't need to travel to any of those stations on the train if the motive power isn't what you are looking for. Newtondale is maybe the exception to that rule but even that stop doesn't see as many passengers these days (likely as much due to length of gap between trains as motive power though). If Goathland or Grosmont or even Levisham is your calling, then you can just drive there. I've seen plenty of people parking at Grosmont and spending time there watching trains without travelling. If a scenic railway trip is your thing then the Northern Esk Valley route is a lot cheaper. Steam and Whitby are the main calling cards for this particular railway though the former is in short supply recently even without the impending FIRECON. I think the numbers prove that.

The hitch with this is because of the likelihood of it being a diesel, unless you are part of the Whitby park and ride market many people just aren't going there in the first place. I don't think they have much of the loyalty left that you display here. There are plenty of other railways available, depending on where you are coming from. For myself, I've got the KWVR on my door step, the East Lancs under an hour away, and the Great Central about the same driving time as Pickering. I used to prioritize the NYMR but very rarely do anymore because they aren't running anymore steam than anyone else. In the not so distant past a regular day there used to feel like a gala at most other railways. I remember being at Grosmont with five (or more) in steam mid week. When was the last time that happened outside of a gala? Its more likely one or two in steam with the rest being diesels.

 

I agree completely on the lack of imagination. I don't believe that it's anything like as simple as being about steam - or that the motive power is so vital a driver to all prospective customers. It's one of several factors, and monocausal analyses of weakness risk missing as much as they spotlight.

But you are a railway enthusiast, who has chosen to travel to a known attraction and for whom the traction is a secondary factor. My reaction would be similar - and I might even travel because of some diesels. But those I've seen leaving have decided that, for them, the traction is part of the package - and if the railway isn't going to deliver on that, they'll do something else.

That takes us back to the need which @Jamessquared rightly highlights for the railway to be imaginative in what it does and how it promotes it. Running the short operation was always going to be a challenge, but it was also an opportunity - and one that seems to have been missed

 

But the clue being in the name "CKsteam", you are always going to have that view. Does that make you representative of the wider market? Who knows?