North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Who does the overhauls on the locos the NYMR paid staff or the loco owners staff?

 

NELPG maintain their locos and the Essex Loco Society look after 825. Peter Best paid for the overhauls on 44806 and 2253 but they are now maintained by the NYMR paid staff, as are all the others afaik.

 

Well, I suspect the answer is probably fairly obvious, even if a little uncomfortable: that over a period of many years, they haven't put sufficient money into loco overhauls to keep up with a rolling programme of maintaining a stable fleet size.

Now, I realise that answer is pretty glib. And inevitably there are circumstances that make that difficult - overhauls get more expensive, so maintaining a steady fleet requires ever more money each year, not just a steady state cash flow. Very few railways - certainly amongst the larger ones operating big mainline engines - have the same sized fleet now as they did 20 years ago. And it hardly needs stating that you can't spend money you haven't got, even if you urgently need to do so. But the obvious answer to your question is about resources. The deeper question is about why the railway is no longer able to generate the level of income it needs to maintain its locos, carriages and infrastructure.

Even back in the 1980s when we had 12 or more locos available, you wouldn't be able to keep them all available all the time. We need three most weekends and I suspect have routinely had 4 - 5 available, with 2 -3 undergoing some kind of minor repair / washout at any one time. Even with 7 available, there has been the odd weekend when getting 3 available has been tight.

For a big event such as is coming up in August, you plan of course, aligning maintenance ands washout cycles so everything can run. But an event like that has been known about since the beginning of the year, and all sorts of cycles of washouts, annual boiler exams etc will have been being juggled to get everything available on one day. Same goes for carriages. One reason why the vintage sets see so much use over the summer is to allow time for maintenance on the side corridor Mark 1 set so it will definitely be available in October half term and again in December for pre-booked Halloween / Winter Lights / Santa trains. You don;t want to hammer that set over teh summer and then have it stopped for an exam when you have pre-booked tickets for it in October.

None of that is rocket science - it is a question of having a service plan for the year that everyone (commercial, operations, maintenance) all agree on, and then everyone does their bit to ensure that the things needed from their respective sphere of influence is ready when needed.

I was thinking about that statement, and what you need a CEO to do. I suspect that on most railways - and I'm sure on the NYMR - the respective departmental managers of infrastructure, loco, C&W, operations etc all pretty much know what they are doing and how to run their own department. So really the CEO needs to deliver two things above all else. Firstly, they need to put in place and then deliver an annual plan (and probably a longer-term one as well) so everyone is working to the same timescales: no good the loco manager saying "I need to bring this loco in for a washout" just when your Santa season is starting. And secondly, they need to deliver the revenue to allow those departments to function, to timescale. A workshop with half a dozen paid staff who can't get on because there isn't the money to buy some necessary materials is still burning money while providing no output.

So I think the "understanding of heritage railways" is a bit nuanced. They don't need to know the minutiae of any of the specialist railway disciplines; you have managers for that. What they do need to be able to do is firstly appreciate the systems nature of a railway (how everything impacts on everything else); secondly to have the confidence to challenge the specialists about the necessity of any spending - but then the humility to concede when the requirement to spend is clearly articulated; but above all the commercial focus to keep the money flowing. If the money is there, the rest of the railway will look after itself.

Tom

 

Steam wise with Manston away my line has 3 locos, as does the MHR as far as I know. Bluebell has more but I suspect could not turn out the 7 they will need for the next gala without some pre planning. @Jamessquared may know the average daily availability.
I appreciate this was not targeted towards me - and I don't know as much about the loco department as others will, but I can talk to some extent about the Bluebell loco situation.

Running fleet:
34059
73082
80151
32424
65
72
2999

That is indeed seven locos. However, three are needed to run most weekends. And, there are caveats with some of the above engines. 2999 is obviously on hire, to cover for the loss of 6989 I believe. 72 is not big enough for regular service trains other than off season. 65 is on its last legs with a year left on its ticket. 32424 has had lots of down time recently and I think needed attention in the works. Basically since Covid it has been a pool of 4-6 ish locos hauling the brunt of trains. There have been times when diesel substitution has occurred very last minute. I also note that throughout much of the summer holidays only two engines are ever steamed - 33108 is the third at weekends. Whilst the situation is not dire at this moment, there is still an engine on hire, and it seems tight.

I'll let @Jamessquared correct and augment my comments as he is from loco.

 

I think there's a third leg to this, as the other two are really only facets of senior management (as distinct from task management). Over and above those two, the role of a Chief Exec is to set the tone of the organisation. There's a layer over and above the tasks of holding people accountable for delivering, where a good CEO can cause the organisation to deliver more than the sum of the parts, and a poor one can make it deliver less than the sum of the parts. That can be simplistically summed up as "leadership", and is not really about management at all.

 

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1LSe5CH6Z3/

2253 on a very well loaded 7 coaches this afternoon.

 

2253 is no doubt a very good investment and will likely pay for itself pretty quickly in this spell of weather. 7 well filled Mk 1s = good income, its how this is replicated, sustained & built upon - but it shows there is demand.

What is concerning is the comments about lack of investment in infrastructure. This is building up huge issues in the future on what is an 18 mile line, which could bite at any point - just as the bridge did this year. Very much a false economy.

 

It's a familiar story around the railway I think - lack of investment. @Steve has already recounted how the loco maintenance budget is pitiful and we know that the PWay and civil engineering side have little to spend on routine maintenance. The only "department" that seems unaffected is the admin and marketing staff, where people are replaced as soon as a vacancy arises, and it seems as though additional paid posts have been created despite the failure of this group to generate any meaningful business. In particular this is a group that is fundamental to the success of the railway, and they really re failing in their remit. If the CEO cannot gee them up they (including her) need to be replaced. Generating the income needed to keep the railway running should be the core job, and cutting expenditure to the bone might help ease that task, but is a very short term measure that will have to be made up before too long. It is not a long term solution.

 

By "understanding" I really meant understanding why the paying public at large visit the railway. We know why enthusiasts do, and enthusiast events normally do well, but understanding what non-enthusiasts are looking for, and what attracts them, seems to be lacking - if the passenger figures seem to be anything to go by - I use the word "seem" advisedly because they seem to be top secret nowadays, only to be whispered in hushed tones within Park Street!

 

Looks like an interesting loco roster tomorrow with 31466 and 47077 going to Midland Road for tyre turning. 44806 is ending up at Pickering tonight so I guess it forms the 09.20 right through to Whitby. As there's no other Whitby loco available it looks like the 10.00 off Whitby is cancelled (or buses) as far as Grosmont. I'm told that 2253 is doing two round trips starting from Grosmont as I don't think it can overnight at New Bridge. With the only diesel available being 37264 the NER Railcar is having a day out, as well.
The Operations guys have done a good job of keeping the trains running with so little in the way of motive power to do so. Hopefully the 31 & 47 can start having their tyres skimmed as soon as they arrive at Midland Road and can be back on the Railway ASAP.

 

You'd think that, with so many non-enthusiasts filling the marketing posts that the enthusiast events would be mediochre and the non-enthusiast events would be a success. Alas, it seems not to be the case. I believe that the week long Thomas event made an overall loss, perhaps because those organising thought 'Thomas' = lots of people = lots of money and opted for a full week of it at the expense of operating the core Whitby services. It might have done over a weekend but over 8 days........ The greed continued with fares that were OTT. Compare them with those on the East Lancs who had a successful Thomas weekend a couple of weeks earlier.
On the other hand, the enthusiast orientated galas have been a success, perhaps because they are largely organised by people who are enthusiasts.

 

I agree that leadership should be at the core of the role and that the people entrusted to lead each department should do the day to day running. Unfortunately from what I have been told the culture is that of blame, lies and micromanagement where the title of head of or director of or executive director of counts for nothing. The decisions are made at the top, the failure is passed to those below, even when allowed to make decisions the financial restrictions are crippling ensuring that nothing works. I have been told that 31466 was restricted from any passenger operation and the people involved were overruled otherwise services would have been cut and that is very very worrying. If commercial activity is put over safety then this will eventually lead to an incident and that could be the end of this line, an even quicker demise than the guaranteed bankruptcy that the business has been driven towards.
Unfortunately I have to agree that the end of the current leader can’t come soon enough. I don’t know if any petition or attempt to overthrow the current incumbent but I bet if it is true that document won’t be short of signatures.
I have said this before but if you are reading this please do the decent thing and go now and give this organisation a chance to rebuild, you can move on and put what must be a pretty horrible job behind you and keep some face. If you leave it much longer you will be the one that killed the NYMR and that is going to hinder you for the rest of your career. Please go and go now.

 

On the other hand, the enthusiast orientated galas have been a success, perhaps because they are largely organised by people who are enthusiasts.

Who would ever have thought that. On the other hand, I think it should be reasonable that the paid staff should be able to organise events for the non-enthusiast public - but it appears that they can't.

 

My observation about the challenge of running a railway is this:

The railway is a system. Unless all parts of that system (infrastructure, trains, business systems, communications and people) are in sync it doesn't work, and problems in any one of them has a tendency to cause an issue somewhere else entirely.

There are some very big issues facing all railways:
1. No residual life left in any equipment or infrastructure
2. Increases in costs
3. Reduced volunteering
4. Cost of living, competition, and demographic changes reducing visitor numbers (a trend for 30 years or more).

1, 2 and 3 all mean pressure to raise prices, but 4 makes that near impossible without impacting visitor numbers too much. And to complete the perfect storm effect,

5. Reduced availability of grant support

This picture would generally indicate a need to cut costs. BUT, heritage railways aren’t generally particularly wasteful spenders anyway, so unlike many corporations, it isn’t easy to slash costs, and I would wager that the only way to do that is to find a way to do so that doesn’t impact visitor numbers.

The challenge is to understand the very particular and precise nature of the system that is the NYMR a railway and its market, and then figure out how to adapt.

A key question to address is whether any trains run at less than 100% capacity and try to eliminate those that do. The costs of running to Whitby must be ripe for review, and properly understanding what that would do to visitor numbers is essential . It might also be that the railway needs to evaluate not running so often to Pickering. Maybe, (and I am not saying this is the case, only that it would be one of the range of options to consider) maybe, it should focus on trains from Whitby to Goathland and back. Essential to have someone who really understands the strengths and weaknesses of the NYMR system.

 

Excuse my ignorance as not from the line but does anyone know which steam locomotives are currently serviceable at the NYMR? Or at least in a position, heat aside, where they could run in the next four weeks? 44806 and 2253 are running. I'd seen a video of 92134 running fairly recently. Repton? S15? 45428? 2392?

 

People like to blame her, but I think a really large share properly goes to the people above her (who have done more incorrect than just hire her). Not that she isn't making even more mistakes, of her own, of course, but a lot of what she's doing is just what she has been told to do. Getting rid of her would not change that. (I wonder if the people currently at the top of the heap hired her in part as a useful target, to deflect fire from themselves?)

I think people who care about the NYMR have to accept that the current management won't listen to anyone until it has piled into the buffer stop - at which point it will be too late, of course. (That eventuality is a prediction, of course, but given the trading losses for the last few years, there is a very good chance it is correct.) Instead of banging your head on the wall, look for something productive to do, after it has gone in.

My suggestion was to get the list of mortgaged assets (@Steve posted it a while back), and look at it carefully. Some of the things on it the NYMR can do without, like the office building. Some of them are held by some heritage asset-holding organization; those are probably OK. If there are others, try and organize a 'New NYMR', and see if you can raise money for it, and then try and buy those mortgages off the current holders.

Noel

 

Others may know better but the last I heard:

92134 was having its chimney replaced. The new chimney had been delivered but I don't know the progress on this.
45428 was stopped waiting for parts (I don't know whats broken here)
2392 is away at Embsay until September, though was stopped in Feb for firebox repairs. July was the target for being back in action but I don't know if thats come to fruition.
S15 is currently under overhaul. It was suggested it might see action late this year but I suspect this has slipped to next year now. Next year is its centenary so they won't want to miss that.
Repton was being reassembled following re-wheeling and retubing but isn't yet available.
63395 is still away at Leaky Finders for various repairs.
29 - no idea why this is stopped at the minute but you'd think it would be being used internally if available

So that just leaves 44806, 2253 and Lucie available at the minute, unless I've missed any. And 44806 must be coming up to a washout soon...

As always @Steve your information proved to be accurate though uncomfortable to read. God knows what they do if one more loco (steam or diesel!) is stopped. Its fair to say the cupboard is bare. I really feel for guys and girls on the front line. There will be noise and its won't be the engines in this case.

 

They don't help themselves at times though by not actually completing overhauls. Yes, problems arise and delays occur, but everything takes an inordinate amount of time.

80135 was dismantled in 2009 I believe! I understand there were problems with the previous boiler contractor, but that's a staggering amount of time for an overhaul. 75029 was withdrawn in 2019 for a quick boiler overhaul after only 5 years in traffic before they found it was in worse condition than expected and stored awaiting funds. 34101's boiler was returned from SDR after overhaul and fitting of a complete new firebox in 2018. They're still haven't finished fitting the stays.

80135 is awaiting its boiler returning from contract overhaul, so it's completion is dependent on that, but 34101 is an in-house job with the bottom end ready to go. Do they still have boilersmiths there or is that another position that's been made redundant? Surely getting 34101 should be a priority now as it's so close? The only NYMR loco currently being overhauled by paid staff is D5032 - 3672 is being done by volunteers. 926, 45428 and 92134 are undergoing repairs and maintenance at present, and 2253 is being tweaked and refined, but surely that doesn't take up all of the paid staff?

https://www.nymr.co.uk/media/33wmqsru/150726.pdf

Today's timetable. I hope the 12.35 from Whitby is quiet - trying to get 300+ passengers from a Mk1 set on to the 100 seat capacity Autocar will be interesting otherwise!

 

Indeed an all time low has been reached with the roster today.

As predicted yesterday: 0915 Grosmont-Whitby & 1000 Whitby-Grosmont cancelled.

AutoCar on 1330/1510 in indeed a shock and with 0955 Pickering-Grosmont & 1805 Grosmont-Pickering extra services!!!

2253 1035 & 1440 which is good to see

 

My understanding from earlier posts in this thread is that where 34101 is concerned there is nothing to prevent the owners from taking it away as soon as it is finished which has effectively brought work to a halt until some assurance is found. Is that correct?
On 75029, when it was overhauled for Pete Best at Bury circa 2003/4 I was told by the main boilersmith that it had only a further 10 years life, maximum, before an entirely new boiler would be the most economic repair. Clearly it managed more than 10 years, with some further work in between, but the boiler is now probably in a similar state to 76079, which was sold due to the estimated £1m overhaul cost.
You could also add 3672 to the much missed, long overdue list.
2253 has eventually become seen as a key member of the fleet but it took Pete Best to overhaul it rather than the Railway when it always seemed a potentially valuable asset. Meantime they also had to sell 44806 in order to get it back in traffic, despite it having been gifted to them by a benefactor in the first place.
Also been gifted 80136 and HE3777, the latter thankfully under NELPG care now but what fate for the std tank given the way similar locos have fared?
They've danced around with 3814 for decades despite its obvious suitability.
In the past they invested in 60007 as a 'core' loco. Fabulous engine but surely vanity not sanity where the Moors is concerned?
Meanwhile the typical train formations seem to have shrunk meaning smaller, more affordable locos could be practical but they haven't got any of those either.
To an outsider it seems like mismanagement for a long time, the impression being complacency that the Moors is somehow a licence to print money and could buy its way out of any situation. Which might have been true to an extent 20 years ago but certainly isn't now.