North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

No notice about FIRECON on the website though so I doubt that is the real reason. God knows there is enough staff there to put said notice up. I'd of thought that would be shouting about FIRECON being the reason whether it really was or not with the current motive power problems.

 

I believe Pickering turns are diesel upto Thursday .
Grosmont turn could feature a variety of diesel ,Omaha or Repton .

 

A front and centre statement on the homepage would definitely help from a customer comms and experience perspective to already manage expectations.

Regardless of what people say the majority travel to heritage railways, especially the likes of the NYMR, for steam and when they find out on the morning or on arrival that there isn't any it is a disappointment. At least some can delay travel plans or organise time differently if they know when it will be available.

 

Why would a copper box not be suitable, didnt the GWR have some of the 28xx class and Hall class as oil burners?

 

It is my understanding that copper fireboxes are less suitable for oil burning. it wears them out faster than steel. In pre-Nationalisation/BR days when there were plenty of spare engines and spare boilers around and there was much larger works capacity it was less of an issue in extremis that really isn't the case now, I suggest.

 

If only there was an Award Winning Communications And Marketing Team

 

A friend used to live in a house that had won an architectural award. It demonstrated that winning awards and fitness for purpose are not necessarily correlated.

 

My sister and family haven’t returned to the NYMR on their annual Whitby holiday for the second year in a row, reason being they got fed up with the prospect of ‘a dirty blue diesel’ being more likely to be at the head of their train than a steam engine. That’s 3 adult fates and a junior. They’re not enthusiasts but want a holiday ride ‘on a steam train ‘.

 

Because of all the debate earlier in the year about the NYMR only running 5 days a week apart from the summer school holidays I thought I would see what a few other lines were doing. Based on August for school holidays and September as a sort of shoulder season.

Yes, I accept timetable frequency & steam availability comes into it, but at the time all the debate was over only operating 5 days. So from this it would appear that the NYMR is one of the leaders for the school holidays and a median for September



August September

NYMR Every Day Not Th/F

GCR Not M/T Not M/T/W

Swanage Every Day Every Day

MHR Not some M Not M/T

Bluebell Not M Not M

WSR Not M/F Not M/F

KESR Not all M Not M/Th/F

Spa Valley Only S/Su plus 2 other days Only S/Su

ELR Not M/T Not M/T/F

KWVR Every Day Only W/S/Su

SVR Not M/F Not M/T/F, Last week Not M to F

 

But now repeat that with days featuring steam haulage. Ideally 100%.

 

I am sorry, oil firing aside, I can not see any justification for running a steam loco over the moors until there is a very good amount of rain. People can be disappointed all they like, but setting a SSSI on fire and endangering life is irresponsible.
The NYMR should be enacting a steam ban (available steam locos or not) and visitors should respect this.

 

How will 60163 even get to the railway with a 'Black' steam ban in place? She scooted it back to Darlington early from Nene Valley, before it came into effect.

 

I tend to agree- wonder if it would be possible to run 29 or "Lucie" within the station limits at either end to give customers at least the opportunity to see some live steam (brake an rides even?) with minimal risk if 2253 is still being fettled.

Chris

 

I don't think anyone is doubting that steam should not be run where there is a significant fire risk.

The problem, as outlines above is in the way that the railway is (or rather isn't) communicating this to people. As I say, like it or not, the majority of people visiting a heritage railway such as the NYMR look and have come to expect steam haulage. If you turn up only to find out you're being pulled by a diesel today a number of people don't just go 'oh that's fine then - I'm happy to pay £40 to be dragged round by a diesel'. They're generally less popular trains when an option is offered and there is a reason for it.

It is fine to replace diesels with steam but I feel that if the railway is implementing this for the next week it should at least be clearly advising customers that this is the case.

I have booked to stay in Pickering next week - they are advertising Tornado running yet seem to be of the view that steam won't run until there is rain. So what's actually going to happen then?

If there is a clear message put out people at least have a chance to rearrange plans and visit on another day. If you're just leaving it until 8am on the morning of the day it's too late and it's annoying - detracting from further visits and damaging reputation.

 

I worded my post carefully, the NYMR should be leading on the steam ban (and therefore communicating this).
The last goodness knows how many pages are about a steam loco shortage - to me, in the current conditions that's irrelevant.
I am currently up in Speyside, the Cairngorms have just been hit by a massive wildfire destroying large amounts of rare habitat. The Strathspey have introduced a steam ban, the trains were still very busy yesterday and no-one complained about a Class 31 on the front, especially when you could see the mountains smouldering out the carriage window.

 

A couple (or three) of key differences I feel the need to point out....

1. The NYMR has demand for more operating days but cut them back as they weren't/aren't keeping up with infrastructure maintenance. The more trains they run the quicker they burn up operating life of everything. We've already seen a lot of stalling and 'kicking the can down the road' across many aspects of this from track, to bridges, to engines, and no doubt many other things due to lack of available finance, and in some cases, not being 'canny' enough. Some of the information about quotes for work I've heard about are just silly money levels, but at least some of that is down to relationships with outside companies not being what they were. I think some of it as well is that the NYMR has lost a lot of experience over the last ten years or so that is showing through now. Unfortunately though this 'kicking the can down the road' will make all those jobs cost more in the long run as well as restricting operations until those jobs are done.

2. On the days they do operate they do so with a reduced timetable compared with years gone by. This creates huge gaps in available trains. Some of this is due to Whitby and squeezing between Northern trains, and some due to running the Pullman during the day instead of in the evening. The latter could have been accepted possibly if they still ran the other path (old Gold Timetable) for another internal train. But long gaps mean less chance of visiting internal stations. Its easy to say we don't get enough demand on internal trains so we won't run as many. But if you take two internal paths out of the day (one deleted and one replaced with the Pullman), then you won't ever get more customers at your internal stations, no matter how good your 'award winning' marketing team are.

3. Just because I couldn't resist, more diesels running than ever no matter what the fire risk. Even before the current dry situation this had become a diesel year. Last year was the first year I can think of that diesel mileage was bigger than steam, even with previous FIRECON years/seasons. This will be the second. I agree it would be silly to run steam through the National Park now, but even when it rains there isn't steam available to take over. Last year I had hoped that while the diesels were running they were busy making sure every steam engine was available when needed, but it proved not to be the case as almost everybody in the shed was needed to keep the diesels running as there just wasn't enough cover.

This comes back to you can't cut yourself out of trouble. The more you cut the less income you have so you end up cutting more because you now can't afford to run as much. You take a path out that's one less engine and train crew required. You lose operating days, that's may one less fitter, one less person in carriage maintenance. All options also mean less volunteers required. So if you try to bring paths or days back those people aren't there anymore and neither are the engines and available carriages, leaving you now needing to recruit/train/buy/replace/repair etc. All taking time and resource. Under current management (and dare I say the previous one) the NYMR has found it sinking into a hole that's very hard to get out of.

Incidentally I saw the launch of the N2 at the North Norfolk day (a really beautiful looking engine). Philip Blenham looked like he was enjoying life far too much... I wonder if he needs a challenge?

 

Another lesson that is emerging and yet not being learned is "don't book expensive high profile guest visiting steam engines in the peak season at times of high fire risk". However much they might ostensibly bring in an extra boost in sales, they need to be able to run pulling trains in order to do so. If 60163 cannot run at the NYMR, I wonder what it will have cost, to no avail?

Firecon spells are becoming more frequent and longer and so need more factoring into planning for the future. Really, the NYMR needs perhaps a fleet of4-5 oil-fired engines available so it can maintain its steam services at all times.

 

Those lines are very different though. Lines like the MHR and Bluebell are not really in tourist hotspots, so there traffic tends to be steady all the time. Whereas lines like Swanage, WSR and, it seems, the NYMR are much more "peaky" with holiday makers crowded into a comparatively short part of the year. So really those lines ought to be working flat out through the summer to capitalise on what is probably a shorter, but more intense, season.

You'd hope that in the case of all lines, they have plenty of data on which to base decisions about service levels, but if - as has been asserted - the NYMR is reducing frequency based on eking out the life of its assets, rather than on predicted traffic volumes, that's a definite concern.

Tom

 

I rather think the sad fact is that fewer people want , or can afford, to take a trip on a heritage railway. As the manager of the Welsh Highland commented, there is no profit in hauling fresh air around.

 

This is the second year that the NYMR has dropped to a five day week. Back in February 2025 I received an anomymous e-mail from someone claiming to be a member of paid staff which went into considerable detail regarding the challenges facing the Railway and included a references to various problems with bridges 18 and 42, track and motive power that weren't common knowledge. It also included the following sentence:-
" The reduction to a 5 day week is not in response to demand or as a realistic cost cutting exercise, it is to reduce the pressure on the structures, track and stock to a level where it might scrape through."
Looking at what we know now, I don't think that sentence was wrong in any way.