Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

I come back to the point I made many years ago, and what is missing from the L&BR project is a voluntary accommodation base somewhere for about 20 to 30 people to be able to rest, relax and get to know each other over dinner and a beer. It could be run on the Youth Hostel Model, where everyone who is staying there mucks in and keeps the place clean and tidy.

 

That never works in my experience.
There’s usually a number of, let’s call them messy individuals (other descriptions are available), who don’t clean up after themselves and expect others to do everything for them.

 

There are plenty like that. I volunteered on the TR for a good number of years, regularly making the 320 mile return trip at weekends.

 

I'll add something to the last couple of days thoughts, as I have had a busy week and not had time to type something coherent. This is from my viewpoint as an interested person who volunteers at another railway but no in depth knowledge of the L&B beyond being a fan. A lot of this is WIBN but a long term plan again might be beneficial

A large Volunteer Hostel is a very good idea as I have done 3 volunteering trips to the Ff&WHR with cross industry learning, development and networking sort of groups (can't think of a good way to describe it) that only happened due to this capability. Small ones are fine for your own volunteers if small but being able to throw a large group on Volunteer leave from a company or whatever is a good thing! IIRC the L&B has a small volunteer lodge which is better ?

Jumping back to Locos & Stock:
Steam
The Turning down of gifted locos: where I volunteer was offered pacers by several looking to preserve them and said no as we didn't have the capability/space/use for them. While it is nice to be in the F&WHR position of being able to have threr does need to be a realistic idea of what you can use & maintain. On the other hand though having a small loco for Driver for a Fiver (plus inflation to you cost of choice at the loss of a snappy name) in station limits or that can take at least a coach or brakevan on the line for Driver Experience or small parties (we have done quite a few wedding trains, often just the Bridal or Groom's Party but equally any small party looking for lots of costs) could be a use if you have the ability to use & look after it. But then after 1 or 2 you don't want to end up with too small of a fleet. Th VoRR (or one of their supporting organisations) has a small loco for Driver for a Fiver. Also if you are short on 'full size' for you line locos you can double head with a non steam loco and a smaller steam loco to keep the punters happy.

Diesel (and other non steam) locos
Definitely needs to have sufficient locos for thunderbird missions, but if there is none suitably sized diesel to restore, even ones not 'important' enough historically to adapt to L&B loading gauge I think a decision to go for another traction (Battery or Hydrogen) might be worth considering. As a person who only holidays in the region I don't know what that may be but Heritage railways in the UK are trailing both with both new build and adapted locos with Battery and Hydrogen for various tasks.

Coaching Stock
Again needs a forward plan, if their Regional C&W folks reach the end of the restoring the bits found in fields and farmyards to superb working carriages the stage needs a plan if the L&B is to extend and have stock. I agree with the earlier comment that the 3rd class seats may be a bit much for some on a longer journey as lovely and historic as they are. . I'd think that deciding on if a mix of full Heritage Trains and 'Modern' Stock Trains might work, but with the area it is my opinion is the way to go is, like the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland on both lines, with a corridor 'modern' section and Heritage Non on the End so people can choose on each train. This allows to run one train and people choose. This decides loop length as well, though it could be 1 or 2 Non corridor and 3 or 4 'Modern' coaches. For 'Modern' coaches I think the L&B has enough history to go for something 'in keeping' to an extent, such as Outwardly like the heritage Bristol Wagon & Carriage Works coaches but a corridor through plus a service car if they want it (though the Isle of Wight does limited catering on non corridor with hampers). Equally my cranky idea is to do Mini Maunsell, if the Southern wanted new coaches that is what they probably would have done, the Hastings coaches are only about a bit wider than the Ducketts on the L&B Brakes

Ooops, that ended up a ramble
I should probably go to sleep

 

To be fair, an unwritten rule isn't worth the paper it isn't written on. If these rules were to apply (and by 'rolling stock' I assume you mean 'locomotives'? There is a difference!) at least half the locomotives at Woody Bay will need to be disposed of!

 

I do get your point, but I think the reason they came about in the first place was to basically stop Woody Bay becoming a 2ft gauge Barry scrap yard of narrow-gauge ex-industrial diesel locomotives, of which there were a number looking for new homes at the time. I think, looking back, it was the right decision to make.

Of course, it also had repercussions for how we have ended up with the current steam locomotive fleet-wise. If I recall, we didn't have that many people involved at the time who had steam engineering experience and who were based in North Devon (with the exception of the guys from the TR who came down a couple of times a month or so).

There was a lot of confusion as to what we should do steam locomotive-wise. Don't forget, we have owned AXE for around 43 years by now and for around the first 20 years she was just a pile of bits until she was sent off to Gartell to be completely rebuilt.

Even now, the railway does not own any other steam locomotive; all are hired in, even LYN. There is still part of me that would like to see a reasonably sized home fleet in North Devon, but the bottom line is that someone somewhere needs to have access to a lot of money when it comes to engineering and restoration costs.

I have been informed that an L&BR-size steam loco built from scratch could cost around 2 million pounds if built outside of the railway's own workshop. A non-working 2 ft gauge steam loco, you need to be thinking around the 50 to 75,000 pound mark just to buy it.

Over the years, there have been a few suggestions, but as far as I know, none of them has come off.

 

Hi Peter, I would agree that the railway doesn't need to own any of the steam locos that it needs; in fact, I can only think of maybe a few narrow-gauge locos which belong to that railway due to being part of the equipment when the railway was taken over by preservationists or a commercial company.

Festiniog Railway
Talallyn Railway
Vale of Rheidol Railway
Brecon Mountain Railway
Snowdon Mountain Railway
Welshpool and Llanfair Railway
Corris Railway.
Sittingbourne and Kemsley Railway

I am sure there may be more which I haven't included; personally, there are alsorts of reasons for and against group locomotive ownership; one would be to secure the long-term services of a steam loco, while on the other hand the group would then be responsible for raising the money to put it through its ten-year overhaul and any other work that needs to be done.

That said, the only additional loco we might need in Devon is a second large Pilton-size diesel loco; my thinking is, should it get to a point where there is a long-term steam ban, and heavens forbid it happens, but let's say just that one day Pilton is no longer available due to serious mechanical issues, which are not easy to repair. Then there would be a problem.

Sure, we have a couple of smaller work diesels, but that is about it. We have both LYN and Sir George for steam, and when she returns, we will have AXE again. In the next five years, it might be possible to see a second part of this railway open, in which case it too will face the same challenges in finding suitable steam and diesel locomotives, and I don't think it will hurt to be prepared for when that day happens.

 

Colin, I really do admire your enthusiasm

That said, while it can be speculated over and over here on loco and rolling stock options, the person who really knows what's needed or is viable is Stuart Nelhams our General Manager. He is very capable in his role, and after chatting with him many times now I know that all the things you speak of here have been discussed at Woody Bay with the guys there almost endlessly including at tea breaks and lunch. He listens carefully to ideas, discusses with his team on operational issues constantly and is often thinking further ahead than many may realise.

May I suggest that you put your ideas to him, he knows the finer details of what's viable and what isn't, and more importantly what's needed to operate the railway at Woody Bay, now and beyond to Blackmoor and Whistlandpound.

He may take a while to reply, he is incredibly busy, but I'm sure he will when he has time to do so.

@Jamessquared Tom, may I thank you for your comments on the carriages after your visit to Woody Bay, it is much appreciated. I will pass on your compliments to the volunteers at the workshops this coming week! Most now well into their 70s, some in their 80's and one is 88 who still turns up almost every week! It never ceases to amaze me at their enthusiasm and what they achieve. Thank you Tom

 

To add to the comments about coaches on here, The Bristol Carriage and Wagon Works coaches are a iconic part of the Lynton and Barnstaple in the same way that the Manning Wardles are and I'd have thought that the basic Bristol compartment coach with the addition of some form of upholstery would be adequate for any extensions within the conceivable future - the Ffestiniog offer a Woodland Wanderer service using heritage compartment stock 15 mile round trip - a round trip between Wistpoundland and Lynton would be around 17-18 miles, with each leg taking around 35-45 minutes depending on the siting of the terminus and the line speed of the train. A round trip between Wistpoundland and Woody Bay would be about 12 miles with each leg taking around 20-25 minutes.

I suppose if you were running through trains between Barnstaple and Lynton some form of corridor stock might be needed but I don't think that should be a consideration at this point.

With the summers looking increasingly warm there might be some merit in looking at what form a Bristol Semi-Open might take, perhaps a version of the 3rd Observation with four open and three enclosed compartments, or even a coach with seven open compartments? I'm not sure how much use the open part of No.7 gets but I imagine it must be significant in hot weather.

 

A lot, probably the most popular compartment, even when the wind howls and it's raining sideways I've seen folks in their wet weather gear ready to take photos and videos

 

That wouldn't surprise me, I remember being on the Welsh Highland quite a few years ago now, and passing the other train in awful weather and seeing a few hardy souls in the open sided coach (before they had any Glazing at all).

On will the extended L&B need corridor vehicles, again this is a very long term thing, but there is two parts to it I'm thinking of:

• toilet access, even if the trip isn't that long you will have some that will suddenly need facilities, children, certain medical conditions, etc. You can plan toilet stops but then it slows you train down.
• Catering, where I volunteer this is a massive part of our income, the 'normal train ride' is less popular and, as I said before the Isle of Wight Steam Railway have some hamper based on train catering, it does restrict things. The Isle fo Man Railway have gone to the effort of converting Open but non corridor vehicles and a Full Drake to Run as Dining Cars and a Kitchen Brake.

The L&B hopefully have a plan, or be writing one but as we don't know and this is a discussion forum it is interesting to discuss.

A related point is I wander what railways have theirs public vs shared internally with staff volunteers vs only management (if any would do that?).

 

>>>>The L&B hopefully have a plan, or be writing one but as we don't know....

Sadly a moot point, as with so much of the likely approach to the L&BR's future. There is the recent Business Strategy, but at the moment I can't recall if it went down to that level of detail on such matters. I suppose we shall just have to continue to 'wait and see'....

 

Hi Dave.

Thanks for that; I agree Stuart needs to be in the loop if and when something comes up. Sometimes I don't always have the opportunity, by the time I hear about something, to say too much, as in most cases it has either been sold or scrapped.

Some time ago I did speak to Peter Miles about this very subject, and it was left very much open-ended, with ownership being on the same basis as the 762Club. I am sure you know the full story about No 9 on the FR and how it was brought with the L&BR in mind in the first place by Mike Selby; in hindsight, it was a story of how not to go about buying a loco for the L&BR and one which I am fully aware of, and also very careful to avoid happening again.

A loco the size of Pilton on 2ft gauge is becoming something of a rarity these days, and if and when it does happen, you will find that someone else has made an offer that can't be refused. Of course I would like the Trust or the CIC to own such a bit of kit, but realistically that is never going to happen. Since they have more than enough things to spend their money on.

The second point is, I am not sure if there are enough L&BRT members who would be interested in joining together to buy, say, one or two diesels, for that matter. As I have said, 2ft gauge locos are getting harder to find, but 2ft 6in gauge locos, well, that is a whole new ball game and would be worth exploring.

I won't say that the market is flooded with such locos, but if you know where to look, then it might just be possible to buy a small fleet all at once before they get scrapped.

 

Bristol open first from Richard Rapier's Remunerative Railways for New Countries.

 

That looks an awful lot like the First Class coach on the 2' 6" gauge Satpura Express from Jabalpur to Balaghat that we took in 2015. Sadly now gone and replaced by broad gauge.

The locals were not keen on opening the shutters. I had a great time as I got to ride in the vestibule with open doors My picture is not great as it is a photo of a photo.

 

If you are thinking of corridor coaches, Bristol has supplied these to the Cyprus government railways



They are similar to those at Tralee and Dingle Railway

 

If ever there was one coach that I wished Bristol had made, this was it. Just for reference, I believe these coaches were the same size as an L&BR bogie coach, if you squint and change the machboarding to the solid panels as on the L&BR

 

I think the L&B could do well to stick to what it knows: we have well-established and authorised heritage underframe and bogie designs, so why not utilise those, and build lightweight modern-image or heritage-style aluminium/steel/fiberglass bodies onto them, perhaps utilising the width of the duckets to build a slightly wider body to stay within the traditional kinetic envelope?

 

Just as a point of interest. As we know the L&B is fairly limited to a maximum of 5 carriages per rake except for very occasional longer rake specials such as the closing of the line train due to platform lengths. Most platform lengths on the line cannot be made any longer due to gradients and local landscape. Introducing corridor carriages reduces the carrying capacity by at least one third to one half of that capacity for the same effort of the loco and associated costs of fuel, maintenance and crew, this will push up ticket costs. Similarly any buffet car style arrangement with kitchen, and perhaps loo as well, severely reduces carrying capacity.

The L&B was never a long rake style line, and mostly cannot be one.

This has been gone over before many times, even on this thread.