North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

That's not to say that other stations can't be developed and marketed as destinations, though, even Levisham - but perhaps not Newtondale Halt! In the past there were horse-drawn cart rides from Newtondale, there's an artist in residence living on the station, and perhaps even the besom-making business could be revived as an attraction - and possibly others. Guided nature exploration tours could be based there too. Grosmont has a large engine shed that could and should be made more of as an attraction.

 

We have stayed in both the pub and a rental in Levisham village, and hence used the train from there. I am not sure what you would have to do to make it somewhere worth spending a significant amount of time. It would be like Medstead on the MHR, and nice station with an good exhibition, but not somewhere to spend 60 or 90 minutes waiting for the next train. The loco shed is a stroll, I am not sure how many non enthusiasts would bother. I know having been there once I would never convince my wife it would be worth the effort again.

 

You obviously didn't read the last line of my post. Lots of people do make the effort to walk to the loco shed but I don't thin anyone would deny it couldn't be improved to become a more attractive destination, and it is one that advertises itself by being alongside the train as it slows to arrive at Grosmont!

 

The fundamental flaw in your argument is that the greatest traffic flow starts from Pickering and always has done. The traffic flow from Whitby is substantially less than that from Pickering so abandoning or even reducing trains from Pickering would be one big 'ouch'. Traffic originating in Whitby can largely be accommodated in one train at 10.00 but, perhaps that's because the next train, at 12.35, only allows you 20 minutes in Pickering so essentially just a train ride. That's largely as a result of reducing the service from eight trains/day to the current six (five on diner days).

 

I think that, relatively speaking, running on the six miles to Whitby is a cheap operation. There may be some additional costs but there are no infrastructure maintenance coasts to consider. I don't think even the additional costs are that huge. Yes,there's the necessary gubbins on the locos but these are one off capital costs. There are track access and station costs (at Whitby) and a requirement to man control whenever trains are running. Maintenance standards should be more or less the same although there isn't the ability to look at possible deviations on a risk assessment basis. i.e. wheel tyre profiles. The book of what you can and can't do is not penned by the railway.

 

Indeed it is a re-run of that debate. But my point is not to reopen Whitby good/bad, but to highlight that for 17 miles of infrastructure with associated fixed costs, driving the maximum cash inflow is key. And with very limited capacity to expand the Whitby offering due to the constraints of the line between Grosmont and Whitby, combined with evidence that pricing has about reached the ceiling of what the market will bear, other income is required.

 

I think all of these are worthwhile, but they're marginal.

I see the same in a different context. We have visitors, who contribute by donating. Those who steward are rightly pleased with those donations, but the amounts are a drop in the ocean compared to the overall funding requirement. Balancing the enthusiasm with the distraction is a challenge that needs care.

In a post-Heartbeat world, the challenge is to make days out to Grosmont and (especially) Goathland attractive. My own view is that, in summer, a key requirement is an hourly service so that places with limited interest (sorry, but it's true) don't require an excessive wait. When I stayed in the area with young children, the non-Whitby workings were invaluable for that - because you could get aboard them at Goathland or Levisham without fighting through the crowds. I know numbers are lower in recent years (another story), but the demand needs nurturing - and is I suspect profitable when assessed on the direct cost of operation - which also means cash generative.

 

I've been consulting with my fag packet

1 carriage per day (on a 5 day week) carrying 64 passengers at £38.50 would bring in £400,000 in a season.

That equates to the amount brought in by Gift Aid in 2024.

Ticket pricing is so sensitive and the price of £49.50 was felt by many to be too high.

Today, passengers are paying less than they were paying in 2023!

 

It's interesting you mention heartbeat, I don't think it was the only driver of traffic because things were already on the up before the programme began production but obviously it did supercharge things once it became established.
I think a bit of tweaking and careful pricing a lot of the demand will come back.

Sawdust.

 

To do what?
Because the main thing on the NYMNP website seem to be about the railway and you already promote that.
https://www.northyorkmoors.org.uk/places-to-go/goathland#things-to-do

 

There's more to Goathland than Heartbeat! There's the walk down to the Mallyan Spout, there's the roman road, there's the (alleged!) history of witchcraft in the area, there's the winding house for the incline and the walk down the rail trail to Grosmont, cafes, shops etc. and then there's the Heartbeat exhibits scattered around. Perhaps even the Plough Stotts could be persuaded to perform on a regular (advertised!) basis in the peaki nseason! It is all crying out for better marketing!

 

In other words, by significantly expanding paid staff, the NYMR may well have already run itself into a financial dead end from which there is no exit? (If so, I am very unhappy to point it out - but if this is the situation, sticking one's head in the sand about it won't help deal with it.)

Whenever a 'turn around specialist' takes over a failing business, one of their usual first moves is to run an eagle eye over spending, and cut all the spending they can - including non-critical staff. Are you saying that UK employment law makes this an effectively impossible option (by increasing the cost of making someone redundant, to the point where such actions aren't helpful in reducing spending)? What does a turn-around specialist who is unable to find enough non-staff spending cuts do? Use administration, which must include provision for less expensive staff reductions (less liquidation be the only possible alternative option in such cases)?

Most other heritage lines seem to manage without a large complement of paid staff?

As I have pointed out before, in the vintage rail world, 'Beeching' is a bad word, but one must assume that his staff were not incompetent, in judging which lines would/could not do enough business to support a complement of paid staff - and the NYMR did not make the grade. (Yes, I know, it was a long time ago, and much has changed since then - but it is suggestive.)

A process which will be harder/impossible for the NYMR, which has apparently already irretrievably saddled itself with a large fixed cost structure.

Noel

 

I have to agree that there isn’t much of an incentive for someone on a day rover ticket to get off at any station in between Whitby and Pickering other than Grosmont which has a very generous access to loco sheds etc.

The line (in my short experience) is also very stop start. For me the waiting time at Gotland is always too long, the approach to Goathland in itself is very sluggish, and there are too many standing still stops and slow downs between Goathland and Pickering when you really feel the loco could be ‘going’ for it.

I do like the railway but these factors, as well as the limited steam running and the delayed opening are
not particularly endearing to someone who lives locally like myself who could be using it a lot more often.

 

All lovely but, being blunt, what makes Goathland a more desirable destination than any other Moors village for a tourist with a week to occupy?

Having been there (and you forgot the children’s playground!), I stand by my view - it’s perfectly pleasant but not a “must see”. Heartbeat, in its time, provided that - and equally repelled some (fewer) others, like me, who simply didn’t get it.

Marketing would be helpful, but it can only go so far

 

Goathland has the great advantage of being located on, and being served by a steam railway! Beyond that, it is necessary to accept the hand it has been dealt, and deal with it! You could argue that Haworth to offer apart from the vicarage and station, but people flock there for the Bronte connection, and I would wager that many of them will have never read one of the novels and "The Railway Children is getting very long in the tooth as a film!

 

Some cultural properties have greater and more lasting reach than others...

The hand is what it is, and needs to be played - but that's why I also emphasise the need to consider the virtues of Goathland as a destination in its own right bearing in mind that prospective customers will have a range of possible destinations they can go to, only one of which comes paired with a train journey.

 

A valid point, but can you provide any examples of what is being done at the NYMR? Because I can't see any of them!

 

The sluggish run to Goathland is probably the temporary speed restrictions, which show no sign of going away. Some of it to do with concrete sleepers which have effectively reached end of life and problems over fen bog. Oh and then of course are the cocked up new bridges on the approach to Goathland which is another permanent temporary speed restriction very close to the station. Such a massive failure in oversight of a critical infrastructure project is inexcusable but typical of the don't question things culture.

Sawdust.

 

Some trains stand in Goathland for almost 15 minutes. The 1640 ex Grosmont leaves Goathland at 1705. The 1235 ex Whitby stands at Grosmont for 30 minutes! It then stands at Goathland for another 15, leaving Goathland 1h 20 after leaving Whitby.

The long central section through Newtondale has three 5mph restrictions and, last year, a mile of 10mph. I'm not sure if the 10 mph has been lifted recently or still remains.