North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

So, what is your solution? Give it up and close it all? Close the Goathland to Pickering section? Give up on the Grosmont-Whitby route? I hear you listing the problems but, strangely, you don't seem to be listing any ways of dealing with them!

I think we all know what provides the problems, the real challenge is finding ways of dealing with them, and really there are only two two issues there - bringing back the visitor numbers to bring in enough cash to at least break even, and then finding the cash to fund the work necessary.

 

Even the Trust now finally admits operational break-even is an impossible dream.

PS: I may have mis-represented what they said. They said they couldn't get by without financial help; but that might have included spending on maintenance. Someone who is more familiar with the details of the NYMR's finances should weigh in - how close are they to breaking even on basic operations?

Noel

 

The flaw in your counter argument is that the NYMR has always been subject to the NR restrictions on the Whitby section. My argument is that if you had a blank sheet and were looking for the most financially viable railway you'd concentrate on Whitby to Goathland.
It may well be that in 2026 economic terms the NYMR is now longer that the business can support. Trying to turn the business model back to what it was 10,15 or 50 years ago is unlikely to remedy that imho.

 

The problem is, as I've already pointed out I don't think reducing the line to Whitby-Goathland would work. There's not much traffic originating from Whitby, and I don't think having the main flow from Goathland would work - there's not the car parking capacity there and the roads in and out are not ideal - but lose that originating traffic and that places the Whitby "cash cow" (if it is indeed that!) in jeopardy. I can't see the National Park favouring it as an option either though that is just my feeling.

 

If you have a blank sheet and were looking at the most financially viable, IMHO you would go for Whitby - Grosmont and a much reduced paid staff. Very little in the way of infrastructure to maintain (although, unfortunately including Br41 & Br42!) and a 6 mile journey, widely regarded as an ideal length. One loco and a set of coaches would probably suffice each day. Only NR approved locos and coaches would be usable, though.

 

....and a lot of the loco fleet would be unusable most of the time.

 

825, 926, 44806, 45428 & 75029. Plenty there for a one train service.

 

I'm disappointed the Sunday blue timetable doesn't run until the gala. Having just over two hours in Whitby, with the pink timetable, seems too short when the weather and daylight hours are still favourable.

 

You might. But you still have the same problem that’s been identified for other options - a railway that goes between somewhere and nowhere. If I were staying in Whitby, would I want to pay for a steam trip to Grosmont compared to other options? It’s the least interesting bit of the railway, and either Grosmont is a tricky place to get to to start the day, or it’s a bit meh as a destination.

More generally, I’ve been wondering about the challenges of “internal” traffic since the extension to Whitby. The more I ponder, the more I wonder whether we’re all missing a major point - that having opened to Whitby 20-odd years ago, the railway has closed the door to a lot of that “internal” traffic. Not in how they market it (though that’s also true), but in how prospective customers see the railway. Pickering is easy to get to, and the trip is a round trip on the steam train. With Whitby on offer, that takes over the other demand because a day in Whitby is far better than one in Grosmont, Goathland or (following a hike) Levisham.

If I’m right in that, then the issue isn’t about the costs of Whitby, but the shift in demand that follows.

But, with the preserved railway being what it is, any option that doesn’t involve starting at Pickering has to contend with savagely reduced demand as the other stations are harder to get to, harder to park at, and less good jumping off points for a day out.

 

Pickering is gateway to the Moors. It's busier than ever and supports hotels including Premier Inn and numerous holiday cottages.
It's the entry point for the railway and they founders fought hard, against the local council (!), for the station.
To have the station shuttered two days a week in May and June/September seems bonkers.
If the railway was closed on Mondays, I'm sure that would be palatable, but to be closed mid-week for two days seems hard to defend.
Even a limited operation would be preferable to being shut.

Truncating the line is just play with crayons. It's nonsense.

There's huge support across Yorkshire and the North for the NYMR. With confident, optimistic management there's no reason why it can't be turned round. At the moment there's a perception the wrong team is in charge, and this team needs to change, and quickly.

 

New Bridge depot, about a mile from the station at Pickering should be thought as an outstation, where locos are stabled overnight between workings. There is room to build a proper loco shed and depot there, when resources permit, but I doubt if it will have anything but facilities for running maintenance and repairs - for steam locos at least. It would make sense to locate a diesel storage and maintenance depot there, though.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I wasn't advocating a Whitby -Grosmont NYMR, merely saying that financially it would be a better bet than Whitby - Goathland, as advocated by @paul1609. As far as I'm concerned, the full 24 mile Whitby & Pickering Railway is the only thing that should be being considered.

 

Surprised to see that after the enforced Pickering-Goathland services reportedly attracted very few earlier in the season, that anything other than involving Whitby as the prime destination is still being suggested by anyone.

Jon

 

Maybe Goathland could be marketed slightly more as a destination? E.g. during the bridge closure, could a visit to Goathland have been advertised? Maybe some family events on the platform there? Or advertise the walks in the local area? It's amazing how quickly a usually-deserted rural intermediate station on a heritage railway can turn busy as soon as a couple of unicorns arrive...

 

It's the fares init.

Sawdust.

 

The reasons for this are historical. When the Fledgling NYMR started, the intention was to acquire the line from Grosmont to Summit and the lines headquarters was sensibly centred on Grosmont . North Riding County Council then stepped in and bought the line through to Pickering for the NYMRto use but, initially, there was no access to Pickering station as it was wanted for other uses. When Pickering station eventually became part of the NYMR, Grosmont was well established at the MPD and workshops. This situation continued for many years until the creation of New Bridge depot but this was nothing more than a siding with a pit squeezed onto what had become the civil engineers depot. All other motive power facilities remained at Grosmont and this remains the case today, although there are plans to build something better on the recently acquired Pig Farm site.

 

I thought the fares on the shorter run to Goathland were cheaper?

Jon

 

They were the usual £25 "two-stop" fares, same as a normal running day. Thing is, looking at videos and photos from the period and various online reports, loadings varied between some services so packed to the point of almost leaving people behind, to running with almost more staff than customers. And no obvious pattern in which days or services were busy and which ones were quiet.