North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

A couple of pages back now I did a simple calculation based on 300,000 visitors/year and turnover of £10m. The figures were deliberately chosen; the former because I understand it has been achieved in the past on more than one occasion, although like many NYMR statistics, relatively difficult to establish but certainly mentioned in annual reports. The second one was to provide an income that should be sufficient to allow a significant amount of money to be spent on the maintenance backlog. Based on those two figures we get a spend of about £33.33/head, which includes all sources from train operations. Now I think that is achievable. I hear the arguments that we live in a different world from fifteen years ago but, at the moment, I don't think that is true. Joe Public still wants their days out and their annual holidays, just as they always have done. The one thing that may have changed is the availability of money which makes it more important to give perceived value for money. If they think that they are getting value for money, they will spend; if they think that they are paying over the odds or, even worse, being ripped off, they will not. Last month, I had a few days in Wales which included a day on the Welsh Highland. My wife & I opted for a full length journey over the line and I bought the tickets. When she heard the price I had paid I was told that she wouldn't have bought the tickets at that price. The irony is I had actually got them at half price - £72 instead of £144 for the two. On the train, it was very noticeable that it was less than half full, probably about a third full and I'm guessing that most had paid the full fare. In contrast, the trains that we past and saw during our visit seemed well loaded, the fundamental difference being that these were all short journeys at a much cheaper rate. I stronly believe that, if you get the price right, you will get the visitor numbers that are currently lacking. Not only that, if the secondary spend is reasonably priced, Joe Public will spend on that. It shouldn't be an impossible dream to get to that £33.33/head average that I used. Arriving at that £10m was also purely from visitor spend. I have not included any other income, such as from donations, legacies, grants, etc which would all add to a botttom line which could be used for capital works.
You may gather from all that, that I think that one of the NYMR's biggest mistakes has been to price itself out of its core market, which is the Yorkshire family having a day out. 'Ow much! Aldi, Lidl and Wetherspoons can't all be wrong. Neither is the Crooked Billet at Saxton where we can enjoy a drink and a good two course meal for two for about £60 (and the vegetables are included). Always busy.
https://crooked-billet.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/Crooked-Billet-New-Menu-Feb-26-1.pdf

 

Absolutely and I believe an HST set has been suggested previously. Others more knowledgeable may know but I believe diesel engines designed for high speed running may struggle when limited to 25MPH. Another factor is the need for suitable servicing facilities. It would however play very well to the opportunity presented by what has been called cool culture. A recent presentation by a well respected marketing authority highlighted that in hot weather that is becoming common for people to stay at home unless their intended venue is air conditioned. An HST set might offer that relief.

 

The YDR certainly seem to be making money with what they are doing, catering for coach tours and food. However, I hear that they are hemorrhaging volunteers and most train operations are being covered by paid staff. It's also possible to turn up and find the train full of these parties so you can't have a ride.

 

I wasn’t aware of the volunteer issues, but the rest is absolutely what I had in mind.

 

Steve, what evidence do you have to back your assertion that the Yorkshire family is the NYMR’s core market? I suggest that’s almost certainly not the case today even if it may once have been. There’s ample data to suggest that spending power in that segment is under serious pressure while at the upper end of the age range discretionary spending is much less constrained. Of course there are many retirees who are struggling financially but the data suggests that around 20% of the higher age group enjoy substantial discretionary spending power. For evidence just look at the cruise market. That’s the demographic with the greatest financial potential which I suspect is what the Ffestiniog/Welsh Highland have appreciated.
.

 

Putting aside holidays, most people don't travel more than 60 miles for their jolly day out so that puts the starting points firmly in Yorkshire. Holidaymakers and coach tours will undoubtedly come from further afield.
I agree with what you ar saying about the higher age groups and their likely greater discretionary spending power but that doesn't mean to say that they will be les cautious with their money. I certainly am and don't consider myself to be unique in this respect.

 

I’m conscious that no one answered your question about Mission Impossible income. It should be remembered that at the time the railway couldn’t run normal services because of Covid restrictions. So the hire of the railway for filming was not additional income but vitally needed alternative income. The credit for that initiative should go to the much derided management team.

 

Agreed but the evidence is that


Agreed but the evidence for that demographic is that the quality of the experience is more important than its cost…….even in Yorkshire!

 

I recently travelled by public transport to Embsay, with the intention of catching a train to Bolton Abbey in time for the LNERCA members train, only to find they had no spare seats. Fortunately Steve Middleton invited me to travel as his guest.
I even made a friend.

Sawdust.

 

I hope she was amused.

 

There's a GWR 5 car and a 9 car set stored at Ely.

They were giving away 143/144 a few years ago. Mend the roof and job's a good un.

 

She doesn’t look it.

 

I let her read this thread.

Sawdust.

 

Most of the above generalities I could agree with but I must take issue on two of your points.

Speed restrictions - without wishing to be nosey can I ask when you last visited the line? There are severe speed restrictions at so many locations already. including bridges. If we get many more the trains will be overtaken by the snails residing in two of the SSSI locations. Bridge 42 has demonstrated just how neglectful leadership have been as bricks have been dropping out not just in recent months but for several years. Residents of Waterloo cottages have reported this to staff at Grosmont station and by phone to Park Street and until the panic last November resulting in closure and propping precisely no notice was taken by anyone, not even the CCE who now has gone on to charge the railway fees on a consultancy basis.

You advocate a Class 150 sprintrer being purchased to work Grosmont - Whitby shuttles. Has no-one grasped that the overwhelming reason for passenger decline is diesel substitution. It is supposed to be a heritage railway, or are we calling the 1990s and 2000s "new heritage".

I can see valid arguments on both sides on whether or not continuing to run NYMR services to Whitby is financially sensible and that fundamental decision deserves to be looked at but the utter stupidity of buying a clapped out commuter DMU barely out of service is beyond all reason or practicality in terms of cost, nil demand and basic sanity. If a shuttle is the answer Northern already provides it a nil expense to us so how the hell would the NYMR benefit by competing?

Most of your postings have merit but on this I fear in this instance you have lost the plot even more than our Worcestershire correspondent.

Three days ago I remarked that I didn't know where this thread is going. I think I was wrong to post on this matter in the first place and i can only blame myself. It has developed into a virtually school debate and that isn't what is important. The majority of posters are clearly genuinely and rightly concerned about the future NYMR, assuming it has one. On that point I don't know which outcome is more probable but what I am sure of is the more time lost prevaricating, even bickering, between different factions will only make the divisons and finances worse.

There are some on here, and unusually here I would agree with Lineisclear. who seem to be most erudite and take pleasure in debating the arguments from an Oxford Union type perspective but some aren't actually committed to the NYMR. As always I would defend their right to express opinions but for those of us who care about the line rather more than academic debating skills it rather sticks in the craw.

Whether I agree with you or not I thank every poster of whatever persuasion who actually knows and loves the NYMR and I wish all well but it's not something I'm prepared to continue pointlessly debating or taking on impossible opposition from those who failed in NYMR office.

I'm going to take the advice of the bloke in the Pickering chip shop and head to Keighley. I hope to see the majority of you there in the future for the simplest of reasons. Keighley has a future.

 

I think you missed my point which was properly examine everything and started arguing the individual items. I am sure you are right about the infrastructure, you may be right about other things too, though not running to Whitby would almost certainly make it easier to run more steam on the Grosmont to Pickering bit so far as I can tell. As to Kieghley, well yes it does have a future, and a much rosier one than many.

 

I don't know for sure but I can report that yesterday's Rio Revival HST trip was close behind a stopper on the Hope Valley and toddled most of that stretch at about 30 mph.

 

It's not so much whether the power units can operate at lower speeds but whether protracted operation at 25mph or less is suitable for engines designed for sustained high speed operation. Does anyone know the answer?

 

Leeds is closer than Keighley for steam anyway... Middleton Railway – Little Railway… Big History – The Little Railway with a Big History!

 

HSTs are Diesel Electric so the engine is not connected to the transmission, the power required and thus developed is delievered by electricity to the traction motors adjusted by the controls via either DC Generators ( older rolling stock and engines) 0r Alternators ( more modern Engines). So running at 25mph is not an issue per say but with some Older Engines running at low powers for extended period caused inefficient combustion and carbon build up in turbos etc. Large thermal load changes also caused cracking in the various castings. The Paxman engines first fitted to the HSTs were especially vunerable to this and we had a policy for our Paxman engines of not running them below 40% load if at all possible in our land based instalations. The re-engining of the HSTs with MTU did I understand solve this as well as cutting oil and fuel consumptions by up to 25%. Certainly when I went up the management tree I never specified British engines - if clients jibbed at the price of MTUs the fall back was Catapiller.
Having said that, a totally different set of higher maintenance skills are needed than for Steam, less hammering and more reading of schematics. Also you cannot DIY electronic control cards for example and need the compoents to still be available should you have the skill sets required.
Operators would also have more problems with HVAC and complicated rolling stock - again specialist knowledge is involved here or in other words its more costly C&W requirement.

Finally a brief word from a non Yorkshireman about value for money. I am afraid the NYMR has priced its self out of my self imposed purchase envolope, as a Retiree now with final salary pension, we could afford the tickets but will not pay such amounts I see on the website. We like nice clean shiny coaches not dull faded red outsides I see on the Videos and do not like worn mocquette. We need to see a value for money ticket price enabling us flexibilty to travel and get on and off as we desire.

Burmister

 

I don't see why class 43 would be any different to any other diesel electric in that vein. The more interesting questions would be their specific suitability for the route given their high gearing*, and the maintenance requirements that they would bring (thinking of air-conditioning, electricals, etc.).

* - I know an HST has been to Pickering on a tour; I believe special arrangements had to be made for the departure from Grosmont due to the curvature and gradient. I certainly have memories of an HST tour almost stalling on the westbound climb to Copy Pit on a greasy rail, while there were various special rules for the Devon banks.