North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

What Burmeister says (12659 above) but additionally:
Red Diesel for heritage railways this morning is 129.1p per litre here in Kent. If you are looking to save costs you don't want to be thinking about running 5 or 6 coach trains hauled by 2250 hp diesels even if one power car is shut down. Fuel costs is one of the reasons that Scotrail wants rid of its HSTS. if you want to go down the diesel route one of the BR Sprinter Classes with mechanical drive is a fraction of the cost.

 

Thanks for your informative reply. That's a discussion forum at its best!

I'm sorry you feel ticket prices are too high. They are an unfortunate reflection of the costs of operating a challenging eighteen and a half mile line with extensive infrastructure burdens. There's been considerable discussion as to whether reducing them would stimulate enough additional sales to more than compensate for lost revenue. Ticket prices have been held this year but sadly the indications are that if they were reduced substantially the overall financial impact would be negative. When compared to the fares charged on some other long lines, such as the Ffestiniog /Welsh Highland, Steve has already highlighted that they could be seen as quite reasonable.

 

Steam has been a lottery this year. Not many winners, just almost continuous class 37s etc.

That's at the heart of the problem. Diesel is cheaper than steam. Did the management hope they could get through the season running as cheaply as possible until the gala?

Only morning trips are viable, except on Mondays. The lack of an afternoon train at 2 ish, on most days, for a trip to Goathland makes the railway's offer less tempting.

 

Given the use by @Steve of "'ow much!" in his posts, I think that's quite an optimistic interpretation of the views of fares - my own are that the WHR is pushing into obscene territory.

This is where understanding visitor numbers is so important - because what matters is yield per seat, and on that front, some of the pricing is decidedly counter-intuitive, as @5944 has highlighted

 

Once again, you seem to be in denial and flying in the face of evidence to the contrary, presumably because you have a rigid and unbending view of the source of the problems and the possible solutions, which I think you have had as long as you have been involved with the NYMR. It is time to reconsider those ossified views and start considering other possibilities. What evidence is there that reducing fares this year would have reduced revenue? Nobody knows, because it hasn't been tried!, but you are assuming that numbers fell because of wider socioeconomic circumstances - but there's now no evidence to suggest that more people would travelled had fares been lower. At least, I hope the new Trust Chairman will recognise these inconsistencies and encourage trying a more adventurous and flexible approach! Reducing fares to a ore family-friendly level would be a good start to help stimulate business, and should then be followed up by looking at premium areas and other value-adding opportunities.

 

The Ffestiniog/WHR is extremely expensive now and I personally am surprised passenger numbers haven't taken a hit, but maybe the cheaper part-line journeys make up for it. Does anyone know what their finances are like? Are they making money, breaking even or losing it? A policy of all locos in steam or being returned to steam suggests cash flow is not a problem. (It's also a railway with a decent amount of infrastructure to maintain including many more stations and miles of track than the Moors.)

Perhaps the NYMR should be offering a full-line return (£50 adult - don't vary the fare according to peak or off-peak, that's madness), a Grosmont-Pickering rover (£40), and a part-line journey. The problem with the latter being that could only realistically be a Pickering-Levisham or Grosmont-Goathland shuttle, both a short journey that you couldn't charge much for (if there was a loop at Newton Dale it would help on that score). Has a shuttle been looked at? Marketed specifically as a vintage train with the teaks it could be worth trialling as a differentiated, lower price point proposition.

 

WHR is £76.32 booked in advance for a return from Caernarfon to Porthmadog, so it's not surprising passenger numbers are low. However, annual membership can be had for £45 per person and allows 10 free trips each year, or half fare on FfR.

From memory, staffing levels and income and expenditure are similar between NYMR and FfR/WHR, but the latter aren't spending it on servicing debts so it's being invested in the railway.

 

I look at assumptions on the one hand, based no doubt on deeply held personal beliefs,and on the other the extensive marketing data on which a rational decision can be based. The "nobody knows because it hasn't been tried" argument is brave because, if those assumptions prove to be flawed, there would be considerable financial damage and it would then be hard to restore fares to their current levels. Anyone can stimulate demand by reducing prices but it takes informed judgement to pitch them at levels that generate the optimal return.

 

If Steve's calculations up-thread are right, a £33.00 return fare should stimulate enough business to improve matters, and if he's right about that should improve the finances - but why not allow some wriggle room and go up to £37.50? The teak train could be marketed as a special middle of day service as vintage stock , this is the the sort of thing that could be, but hasn't been, tried - and whose fault is that if it isn't the SMT's?

 

At risk of going over old ground the Whitby rover became the main ticket because of Gift Aid. To enable Gift Aid the ticket had to cover the full line offering, regardless of ownership (this has been argued many pages ago but essentially HMRC stipulated the requirement). The Grosmont Rover was removed when that requirement became evident.

Speaking of the other railways, the Ffestiniog, WHR and Snowdon railways are all railways I once wished to travel on but all were avoided when on holiday in those areas due to the unjustifiable level of the cost for a family of four. If it weren't for life membership the NYMR would be in the same boat, though this year the lack of steam has kept me away instead.

The NYMR has got itself in the ridiculous situation of charging more than years past but offering less trains for the price. Its extremely hard to use a rover effectively yet that is the ticket they want to sell. I'd love to know if they measure repeat business vs new customers, and how that has changed over the years. I suspect the repeat levels are falling and will continue to do so until at least more steam is offered on a regular basis.

 

If I may respond to your suggestions, albeit with my own views and understanding, for the most part, I'm in the pro Whitby camp. In terms of daily operations it costs relatively little and has the big advantage of the NYMR not having to maintain any of the infrastructure, which is becoming more and more of a headache for the rest of the line. Yes, there are 'start up' costs in the form of GSMR, TPWS, etc, but these have already been acquired and are transferable to other locos at overhauls. There are also track access charges and station access charges but Idon't believe these are significant. Its big disadvantage is that, because of timetabling constraints, it limits what the NYMR might want to do. I don't know how the EVL re-signalling will affect things but, hopefully, it will improve matters.
Speed restrictions are already in force over many bridges. I believe the current ituation is: Br.18 - 10mph, Br.24 - 5mph, Br.25 - 5mph, Br.35 - 15mph, Br.37 - 15mph & Br.39 - 15mph. Br.42 has a restriction only allowing one loco movement at each time on the double track over it. Many are associated with track restrictions which currently total 3m 17c; about 18% of NYMR owned track. Br.24 & 25 are a bit of a mess. they were replaced a few years ago and there is nothing wrong with thebridges. However, as I understand it, they were raised, including the track and and that required a much greater depth of ballast under the approach tracks, ballast that couldn't be placed as the formation wasn't wide enough to accept it, hence a ski ramp and ongoing restrictions until a retaining wall can be built to contain the ballast.
The Railway is now running less trains than in a very long time purely to externd the lif of the infrastructure and rolling stock. Apart from the summer weeks it is operating a 5 day week and has reduced daily trains from a max of 8 each way to 6.
The Railway only seems to want to engage with its volunteers and other stakeholders with propoganda information rather than telling it like it is.

 

Sorry to wind this back a few pages; catching up.

With respect, I think you're over-simplifying what is meant by 'volunteers enjoying their hobby'. I've never been a NYMR volunteer but based on my experience elsewhere, I have enjoyed being out in the countryside, I have enjoyed a peaceful day in the signal box when I could read a book between trains, or indeed a busy day when I could get a good workout (physical and mental!) while watching trains go by, and I have enjoyed a few beers with like-minded colleagues, many of whom have become life-long friends. I have not particularly enjoyed being press-ganged into unblocking the foul drain from the ladies toilets, or working a 12 hour shift lugging concrete around in the pouring rain, or breaking my finger whilst unloading a wagon, or very probably various other things I've ended up doing over the years. But I did these things without complaint (well, much) because of what? Because I want the railway to succeed, because I care about heritage and because I recognise that these are things I can do, which can make a difference. Other people may not volunteer, but may support by buying a ticket, and that's fine as well; I have done that at other railways. But I don't imagine that my occasional day out at another railway makes any appreciable difference to the bottom line, or whether or not the guy rodding their drains is 'enjoying' it or not.
The point I am trying to make, maybe not very well, is that the motivation of the volunteer runs much deeper than "I enjoy doing this". It's probably more of a calling than a hobby. I certainly felt that I was helping my railway to achieve its aims, and that was a much bigger motivator to me than whether or not I was 'enjoying' the particular task on a given day. Arguably, volunteering has also come at a price, both in terms of direct costs (travel) and lost opportunities (more time with family). And for me to continue to pay that price, requires a belief that the overall project remains on a positive trajectory, whatever that looks like (and regardless of the odd bump in the road).

 

^^ exactly this.

Tom

 

I don't believe we disagree. I've certainly done things as a volunteer that I would have preferred to avoid but I still enjoyed the satisfaction of knowing ( or at least believing) that I was helping. The "enjoying their hobby" description was Steve's but perhaps it needs to be interpreted as "enjoying being able to contribute"?

 

In making this a reply about price, you have completely missed the point of @burmister comment which as I read it is about value.

He wrote

which looks like it is about price, and you have answered accordingly - in effect "we are a long line with a lot of infrastructure, so have to charge that price.

But he went on:

Note that he said he could afford the tickets, but chose not to buy. At which point it is about value, not affordability. Is £50 a reasonable charge for a ticket? No-one really cares that you are a very long line, or have challenging infrastructure, or that steam locos are expensive to maintain. They want to know - does this feel like value for money? When all is said and done, £50 is a lot for a day out - so what you offer had better be good. If you could provide clean carriages, attractive interiors, high-likelihood of steam, a frequent service that makes hop-on, hop-off a possibility, and a journey that isn't stop / go / stop / go from numerous speed restrictions, then £50 starts to look quite attractive. But seemingly you aren't able to offer that; really, the scenery has become almost the only selling point. That is not good enough to justify a £50 ticket.

At £50, you've got to make the experience magical: delight the visitor from the moment they draw up to the station. Tired carriages aren't going to do it. A year or so ago, I paid £104 for a family (2+2) on the Dartmouth Steam Railway: we got a 12 mile round trip train ride behind steam (the majority of it through excellent scenery); ferries across the harbour, a two hour river cruise. The whole day felt like real value with lots to entertain both adults and kids for the day. For the same price, would I want to go once to Whitby and back on tired carriages? Probably not, and in any case there are other heritage lines in the country where for about 1/2 - 2/3 of the same price, I could get a day rover, do similar mileage and in much more interesting carriages, and much higher likelihood of steam.

There have been numerous comments about the price being too high, but really I think it is the value is too low. You can't charge £50pp for a day out, and also have shabby carriages and an air of being generally worn out. For a family holiday, £100+ for a family is putting you into the "we might do one trip like this in a week, not every day" so that trip has to be "the special one".

Tom

 

Many of you have welcomed the participation from @Lineisclear on this forum, when no-one else from the NYMR's management side is willing, able or allowed to do so - but I feel that his opinions and views personify all that has gone wrong with the NYMR is recent years, and so should be treated with caution in terms of their validity. He clearly does not understand the reasons why most of us volunteer or why we feel that we have opinions on how things should be done - because many of us have experience of dealing face to face with the customers and so have a grasp of their perceptions of what they have come to visit. Just as clearly, he does not understand the psyche of visitors considering travelling on the line and so bases their decision, in gradually increasing numbers, on the diminishing amount of money they have available to spend. the question of "value for money" doesn't seem to enter his thoughts. If this lack of comprehension of what customers want has spread to the SMT , then there is no wonder that the whole ship is foundering.

 

This afternoon, I have spent two hours in conversation at Pickering Station. I am now more optimistic about the future prospects for the NYMR.

Sawdust.

 

Perhaps I should have used the word participate rather than enjoy. I certainly don't enjoy getting up at 04.00 so I can spend a day driving. However, strangely, I don't mind cleaning out the blocked toilets, spending a couple of hours cleaning out a firebox for the boiler inspector or doing similar with a rather dirty, oily and flooded pit, all of which I've done recently.
Whatever, the essence of what I said remains the same.

 

The willingness to engage, and the content of the engagement, are two different issues. I can respect one, and argue fiercely with the other.

As for the role of the SMT, I fear you're right about the lack of understanding of prospective visitors' motivation and what they're looking for. It seems to lack the sense of engaging with why people would wish to visit NYMR, and how they'd engage, in favour of a very mechanistic view of visitors by volume.

I struggle to reconcile that impression with either the sort of data that we're repeatedly assured exists and is considered, or the stated experience of the CEO. I suspect I never will

 

With all the "doom and gloom" on here recently, can you tell us any of the positive news that you have heard?