North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Random idea number two from me:

On Pink timetable days move the Pullman to operate the Whitby path and change it to a diner excursion type operation. You can brunch/breakfast on the way out and do a light meal on the way back with just under two and half hours in Whitby inbetween. With only one path on those days its a struggle to be able to use them properly, and the time there if wanting food isn't enough. If you've just filled up enroute you've got time to explore a bit more, before returning. With it being more exclusive than the regular diner slots it can also be more premium in price.

You would obviously have to work the numbers on this one though. I don't know how busy Pink Whitby services are compared to the normal weekday/Saturday ones. Those I would never want to take a service out of but the Pink is a bit more of a prospect in my head.

 

And a few more:

Why not do the NYMR not do driver experiences on the more famous visiting engines. You could run them on 'non operating days' and limited to Grosmont - Goathland to limit the signalman required. Other railways make good money out of these but I've not seen it done here.

I've seen others do 'freight' days as well. With paying customers working between driving, firing and guarding. The NYMR goods train doesn't get out much anymore but there's an opportunity for it on those Thursday's and Friday's.

And finally, what about a signalling experience day. The North Norfolk ran something along what I'm thinking this year using Holt which sold out. Signalling Experience Day – North Norfolk Railway. The NYMR has four signal boxes with all providing different experiences.

I'll stop now, for today at least

 

I agree with you on 1 and 3 and I believe that 2 falls in to the same boat.
The teaks may well be attractive if you are there, but I fail to see beyond the enthusiast community and great numbers visiting because of them. Ergo they would be valuable as the host of a product such as afternoon tea, some other form of food offering that does not
or beer/wine/gin events.
If @60044 really believes they are that good at purely attracting visitors then surely the set should be split and the coaches added to each set so there is always a teal coach. Basically the same suggestion as the Pullmans that @cksteam came up with.
However as I see the Pullman idea has already been "rubbished" then perhaps trialling anything to see what works is not really for all.

As an outsider it seems to me, like many lines from time to time and some currently, a steam loco shortage has arrived due to a number of issues that lines suffer from time to time. The NYMR were still planning on running a fair amount of steam, unlike say the WSR, MHR, Swanage or Bluebell who have significantly reduced their steam volume either by the planned use of more use of diesels, reduced number of trains or in some cases both.

The other thing that needs to be remembered for all lines is apart from the ticket price it is the cost of getting there if you are not on holiday in the area or a day visitor. For example before I realised I was to ill to think about going a 1 or 1.5 day visit to the Bluebell Gala was going to cost me around £250 to £300 before the railway ticket price. As one poster mentioned earlier in the week it is not about if you can afford it, but the value you think you are getting. The railway can do nothing about most of those costs at all.

 

I disagree on (2). When I've visited and they've been operating, they offer a bit of a halo experience, and because they look different, draw attention. That works better when they're running as a set (even more so given the constraints of Whitby operation). But my hunch is that they work better as a highlight to draw people in than a specifically saleable experience.

 

I did ask for helpful and constructive comments - I presume you read that! I didn't "rubbish" the Pullman argument, but pointed out that there would be some issues - and its author has recognised the validity of my comment and suggested some modification to his idea, based on them. They seem to me to be worthy of further consideration and possible trialling; they are, after all, suggestions, and it isn't up to me to implement them.

Perhaps dividing the teak coaches between two "internal" sets might be a way of getting more exposure and use from them but and this is purely a personal opinion - I think it would destroy their impact. I didn't say they necessarily attract visitors per se but I (and others) give rise to favourable comments when they are used. What I proposed was using them as a regular train but on a quieter working where they could be advertised as "something special" but if you think that non-enthusiast visitors are just self-loading cargo with no interest in what they are travelling in, then perhaps I am wrong. As you apparently used to work for BA perhaps you have a better understanding of such matters.

Inn terms of steam haulage, I feel on less shaky ground It has been pointed out that the basis of all the NYMR's publicity and marketing material focuses on the use of steam locomotives, so that is what should really be provided, and I for one fully agree with that viewpoint. With its services routinely running onto NR tracks and operating over a challenging route it faces more challenges than most other heritage railways but it hasn't been helped by swingeing budget cuts across the engineering departments , and that has been the case for a while. I wasn't going to state the blindingly obvious, but since it appears to be necessary I'll do so - a way has to be found to bring in more capital to increase all of the engineering budgets.

 

I think it is the staggering change at the NYMR that is most noticeable. On the Bluebell, since Covid we have hovered around the 30,000 miles per year mark, of which steam is about 80-90%. There have been little fluctuations, but not too far from those figures - for example, 2025 was about 31,000 total, 27,000 steam. What is staggering in the NYMR case is (as per https://www.nymr.co.uk/media/xrpfemb2/nymr-trust-2026-report-and-financial-statements.pdf) that steam mileage has gone down from ~ 48,000 to ~ 25,000 in a single year. Moreover, total mileage has gone down from ~ 64,000 to ~52,000.

It's very difficult to imagine how the railway budgets given such massive swings in service levels. Normally you would start from your previous year in service plan and budget levels, and then tweak things a bit one way or the other as you see fit. The NYMR seems to have been marked by erratic swings in both service level and pricing, to the point that all bets are off as to how you decide what if anything might be viable or profitable.

I can understand that for the individual, you have to factor in all costs of visiting, including travel costs and any overnight stays. However (and I am coming at this from the point of view of someone on holiday or a weekend break, since that is when I do the majority of my visits to "other" lines), essentially I have already factored those in by my choice of location for a holiday or short break. So if I am already on holiday in Devon or Norfolk or Yorkshire, I've already discounted the cost of getting and staying there, and at which point my perception of value is then just based on the price of the attraction itself.

As an example - earlier this year my daughter was on a choir course in Worcester, which necessitated a weekend stay there. On our free day, we went on the SVR. I always make a point when visiting other railways of paying the normal fare, and not trying to wing any advantage of being a volunteer elsewhere. I think for a 2+1 family, we paid about £70, for which we did Kidderminster - Bridgnorth - Highley - Bridgnorth - Kidderminster. About 50 miles, all behind steam, all in pre-nationalisation carriages, with a visit to a museum thrown in at Highly and tea at Bridgnorth before our final trip back. That was on a normal spring operating day; I'd say considerably better perceived value than what the NYMR is offering for a similar mileage and half as much again in cost. In other words, staying in Worcester, we chose to visit the SVR. Had my daughter's course been in York, would we have chosen the NYMR for our day out? Much less likely.

Tom

 

There are lots of ideas being banded around on here, which is great. With regard to (1) above, there are definitely people interested in history and heritage but, even if charging a tenner/person, I don't think it will make much in a day. Let's say 20 people on each tour and 2 or 3 tours/day that's only £600 max and I don't think that figure would be hit every day. Yes, it's £600 that the railway wouldn't otherwise get.
The teak train (2) I agree with. Publicise it like heck on the 10.55 or whatever path is chosen. I've lost count of the number of people who've asked me if there is a supplement for riding in them over the years. Not sure I like thesuggestion by some one else about having one teak in each set, though.(3) is pretty much the same as (1) in terms of monetary value, IMHO.
(4) A food (and drink) festival would be good if held at Levisham and encourage people to get there by train. In my experience, though, people will baulk at paying an admission fee to what is effectively to shop, which is why you need to encourage travel and pay for car parking for those that don't.
(5) Don't disagree. Pickering 1940's w/e, Whitby 60's w/e and Goth w/e, for starters.

I'd go along with most of these except (8) Running the diner out of Pickering is quite problematical as both the possible slots (12.00 & 13.00) are Whitby trains and they are the bread and butter. Even now in October, when there is no 13.00, the return from Grosmont at 14.40 clashes with an up Whitby train. The idea of running the diner to and from Whitby would mean that you are depriving a return train for those who went to Whiby in the morning. There are other logistics problems, as well, especially the lack of a third platform at Pickering. It isn't easy.

Once the EVL is re-signalled, I do think the idea of running to Battersby should be back on the agenda if the paths are available. Evening excursions were popular and had the big advantqge of only requiring a Grosmont signalman to run the service.

 

I am given to understand Garnet is now the most requested of the 1960 Pullman cars. Philip Benham introduced first class mostly provided by mk1 CKs, I have a feeling they have gone now.

Sawdust.

 

Education is I am told a cornerstone of the arts council funding.

Sawdust.

 

I can just imagine you standing at Pickering booking office, Tom, and when being asked to pay, uttering those immortal words. 'Ow much!

 

I think the present setup with the generator in a horsebox would rule out going to Whitby with the Pullmans, not sure if it can operate without it.

Sawdust.

 

Well, quite! Though being a southerner, I'd pronounce the "H"

It comes back to value. I'm in the somewhat fortunate position that I can afford £100 for a family day out. But it had better be bloody good value for that figure. If we go on holiday for a week, there is almost certainly one thing we do in the week that costs us that sort of amount, but it is generally the highlight, not every day. For £100, I don't want ordinary. If that one thing is a train ride, it had better be steam; in well-restored and clean carriages, with freedom to come and go throughout the day and something more than just the ride itself.

Tom

 

I am surprised they have not had D/Ex unless of course the rule book does not allow.
They used to fly off the shelves down here, often sold out before I even noticed them. Recently appears they do sell but even a few days before there is the odd space, even with the current T3 ones running at the moment which I expected to be really popular.
I have also noticed a few photo charter invites that have had "we still have spaces" emails sent out recently, so maybe the enthusiast end is getting a little more fickle.

 

The NYMR does do pay and play, generally using No29. It would be on an individual basis but I suspect that some of the premier division loco owners would baulk at the idea. These locos also command a premium hire fee. Add to this the operating railways cost and profit margin and you are probably talking about£4k/day + vat and more.

 

I've certainly seen other railways do it so I can't believe the charges are that extravagant. If I look at the Nene Valley anytime they get any type of headline engine in you will see it headlining all sorts of things, including specific Driver Experiences for which they charge more than the regular ones they do. Even now they are advertising Pendennis Castle for January at £600 for a 2 hour experience (and some extras, though only 1 hour on the footplate).

When compared with what the NYMR sell it looks like a missed opportunity to me. With what the NYMR has available they could go to town with it and add a lot more to the experience (and charge a lot more), or just use the Grosmont - Goathland climb and charge the normal fees you'd pay for full line on 29 (because you've got a headline engine).

Pendennis Castle Driving Experience | Nene Valley Railway Ltd

 

I think the MK1 CK's are still there but I don't believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that there is any supplement to use them. When you consider what first class is on rail tours or even other railways now though, is a Mk1 CK what you think of? If you in a group they are better assuming you can get a compartment to yourselves, but other than that...

I think there's a couple of reasons for Garnet being the most requested. Up until recently it was the by far best option for the diner in terms of décor and comfort. The seating layout is also mostly two's rather than four's so more couple friendly. I wonder now Car 79 is back whether the statement still holds true though. That carriage is a thing of beauty!