North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

I do agree the maths is important. I'm certainly not suggesting just getting engines in for Driver Ex's, and the numbers have to work or at least cover off without detracting something else. I say the latter because these things have been known to bring in new supporters, donations and volunteers.

I use the NVR as the example because its not just about the Driver Ex, that's just part of it. For Pendennis they are bringing it in for December and January. So they needed an engine for the Santa's and are making the most of having it while its there. Its also doing a Fish & Chips evening and the Winter Warmers.

For the NYMR I'm just saying if you already have a engine coming, like the NYMR have had before with Gresley, Tornado, Bahamas and many others, there are other things you can do with them while they are already there.

Even if you just use that engine for a marketed diner train (that would likely already be running) you can charge more per seat. I've never seen the NYMR run the diner with a specific advertised engine. Though I have seen the diner with a big name on the front with the paying punters seemingly just getting it by luck and for no extra cost.

But also the Thursday and Friday element creates other opportunities. The NYMR tries to cram the current driver ex into the service schedule on open days. If they ran them on closed days like most railways do they are much more flexible and don't have to run full line. That means you can either limit the resource needed or add levels to the experience (light engine, or a couple of coaches, or a brake van, or a small goods train). All at different price levels.

Moving on a little, I did also note that the Worth Valley were doing crane experiences this year. Anyone know another railway that's been shouting a lot about having a steam crane recently?

Drive a Steam Crane - Keighley & Worth Valley Railway

 

I absolutely agree with you about looking for additional opportunities if the loco is already there. When we have had "star" locos in the past, such as Flying Scotsman, we have run many of things you suggest, such as additional dinning trains (both breakfast and evening) marketed around the named loco, photo events etc. If you are cute in how you do that, for example running them without requiring an additional steaming, you can increase the number of events over which to amortise the fixed costs such as transport without increasing cost base too much.

You do have to consider how logistics work out, and sometimes some things may not be possible. As an example, on our line we can typically do preparation, run three round trips and dispose within a single 12 hour duty. If you decided you wanted to run a breakfast Pullman before the main service, and an evening Pullman afterwards, you are now no longer within that 12 hours, so need an additional crew. Getting an additional loco crew for a "star" visitor probably isn't too much of an issue, but it might be more problematic if your contract with the loco owner is that they provide an owner's rep (likely to be chargeable) - now you are into paying two people (plus accommodation, meals allowance etc), rather than one, from the owner's side for that day of operation, and that assumes that the owning group can staff that requirement. In other words, the host railway may wish to use the loco for additional events over and above the "core" contracted services but which the owners can't support.

Absolutely worth exploring though, because if you can get it to work, it provides more revenue at a somewhat marginal cost, which is the holy grail in terms of defraying the large fixed costs of such a visitor.

Tom

 

If the loco has been brought in for a gala, then its transport costs should have been covered, so I don't think that recovering should really form part of the equation; the moment it does is when I think the plot has been lost! That at least makes the financials more attractive!

 

Hard disagree. Whatever the event that something is brought in for, there is a fixed cost for simply having it present. If you can spread that cost, then that helps overall profitability - not least by boosting the return the gala provides to the wider railway.

 

Look at it another way. If a loco is brought in for a gala and doesn't cover the cost of bringing, should it have been brought in the first place? Any additional use needs to be pure "surplus" (because we don't use the "....." word as a charity). If reliance is being placed on additional use to improve the financial viability of it being there I suggest the reasoning is flawed.

 

I'm taking an absolutely hard headedly commercial view. Your assertion assumes that the decision to hire is automatically attributable to a single event. It may not be - and the use of additional events within even a limited hire period may well help with overall profitability.

 

.... but then that additional use means it is being run at reduced profitability throughout its stay, and that makes it harder to justify bringing it it all sounds to me like running harder to stand still, which is not where the NYMR needs to be at. This is all hypothetical, though, without the actual figures to base whatever assumptions we are making - and that's making it start to sound like an enthusiast's agument, rather than the business one it ought to be!

 

You're confusing fixed and variable cost. The fixed cost is just that, and extracting more value from it is straightforward good value (provided you're not displacing other, wasting, assets). The variable cost of operation is what then determines the value overall - and whether stretching the loan will or will not be value.

 

I'm not an economist, but I think I can grasp the basics! IMHO it is necessary to cover the fixed costs, bringing a loco for whatever event at that event. Then, go on to generate (hopefully, additional) profit from subsequent use; that should be the goal, not trying to cover the fixed costs from additional use.

 

Perhaps a business-person, instead? There are standing jokes about academic economists who can't do math! (Business-people who can't make the numbers add up often wind up out of business!)

Noel

 

So in your flawed opinion if say the movement cost and any fixed hire fee for 60007 is £20000 but it only generates £19500 of excess income over variable costs for both the steam gala and it’s marketed trains it shouldn’t have been hired as each item would have lost £500 despite an total surplus of £19000 from its hire ?

I can think of many lines who spread loco hire costs over several events eg GCR and SpaVR for starters ,probably GWR too with 45110 this season ( should that not have been hired if total transport cost not covered by their May gala )?

 

The latest Ffestiniog magazine paints a very rosey economic picture, but also one that has taken a lot of hard work to achieve. They got a lot of stick for going for an 'Experience' model, but the reality is they now sell a similar product at many different price points. The expensive all line tickets maybe pushing £80, but there are other tickets below £30 & family tickets for around £50. They also have flexibility of being able to add additional trains if demand exists or sticking with a more minimal timetable. Full line trains on the WHR now only run 3 or 4 days a week, the majority are part journeys at cheaper prices.
Paul Lewin made much of the fact that the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland can not afford to carry around fresh air, prior to Covid they estimated they were running trains thst had a capacity of well over 300,000 passengers a year, but actual figures were half that.
The current format aims to far more closely match trains to demand, so a service only departs if it is profitable. Looking at the amount of investment that continues to happen on the railway, its a format that is working at the moment.
No one is going to deny the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland are in a high tourist areas and are quite different railways to the NYMR - but both are long railways with high infrastructure and maintenance costs. Running through National Parks. However, a quick glance at their latest glossy 'Whats going on' brochure to members and shareholders, suggests a management that is well on top of the current challenges and one that is not scared of adapting for the future. The article on ensuring their website and advertising is adapted & suitable for AI searches and Social Media was an eye opener. They have also invested heavily in measures to ensure steam could run through the heat wave this year, far less steam substitution than even last year.
I have visited 4 times this year and all trains have been well loaded. A summer day visit to Porthmadog will give you one of the busiest steam experiences anywhere, quite often 7 or 8 locos in steam and movements every 30 minutes.