WHR General Discussion.

I'm not sure if the attached letter to the WHHR has been available here before, but as it is available on several other forums I attach it for everyones information.

Martin.

 

I can inform you that the North Wales Light Rail Transit proposals are still advancing, but comparing this to the already existing service is slightly misleading. As i have already stated, there are no intentions to change the present narrow gauge infrastructure. This subject is, i believe, beyond the scope of this site. Even so, thank you for your interest. R

 

As there are ALWAYS two sides to a story, can I just add for balance, that after trawling their archives to get their facts straight, the WHHR replied to this letter in mid March this year. There have been a number of comunications between the two sides since, although there does not appear to have been any face to face discussion
The reply is not in the public domain. However suffice it to say that the WHHR claim that the letter from the FR contains up to 30 factual errors and that they have documentation to prove it.

Who is right? Well I suppose that may depend on just what documentation the WHHR have.

I am lead to believe that there may be a meeting between the two sides later this year(don't know exactly when), at which this may be discussed. Perhaps now would be a good time to leave both sides alone, at least until they have had that meeting?

 

No - FR have had to delay the start of contracts and therefore delay completion of the job, but volunteer work is still very much in progress.

 

As an outsider it is very difficult for me to balance the merits of each sides' positions but I am surprised that it should take the WHHR nearly five months to reply to the letter from the FR; particularly as a reply was requested by the following month. I get the impression that the WHHR is not quite as professional as it needs to be now that the scale of operations to which it could contribute is so large. I hope that this is all resolved soon. I had a great time on all the railways in the area, including the mainline with the Cambrian Express, just a fortnight ago.
Cheers
Alan

 

Yes we all wondered about that at the time. I suppose we have to accept that just because one side demands a reply within a month, it does'nt mean that it is necessarily practial or reasonable for them to get one in that timescale. IIRC the WHHR did ask for and were given an extention to that deadline.
As I understand it, first they had to locate all of the relevant documentation (by the sound of it there is quite a lot of it). Then it had to be organised and then (in view of the tone of the FR letter ) the lawyers were had to be consulted - it all takes time I'm afraid!

 

But that particular aspect of the ongoing overall dispute has drawn Network Rail into the equation (the crossing-keeper’s box is to be built on Network Rail land adjacent to the crossing at Porthmadog). Have WHRP management thought that their deliberate delay tactic of withdrawing co-operation could be prejudicing the future willingness of Network Rail to work with other heritage railways in other parts of the country on other projects?

Chris

 

The delay in response was due to the seeking of legal advice. There were some serious accusations in that letter, and each had to be dealt with in a factual and correct manner. As Martin has said the WHHR believed there to be 30 factual errors in the letter, each of these had to be addressed and backed up.

As I am learning elsewhere there is more depth to this than I had ever imagined, and actually I think neither side is without blame in this.

I would say to those questioning the WHHR and there current lack of physical involvement in the project. Would you donate your spare time to help build something from which you see your company getting no return. Until the FR suggest that there could be a possible solution, where is the incentive to help. Several people have given up several years of their lives to build the line to Traeth Mawr, only to see WHHR trains removed from that section.

Remember a half truth dressed up as the truth, does not tell the whole story.

I suggest we just let the two sides meet (October I believe) and discuss this round a table, no good can come from people discussing it on here.

 

I agree there has been fault on both sides - and wish them luck in negotiating a lasting settlement which I am sure is possible.

 

I would like to echo the thoughts of Nexuas and Miff - that there has been fault in different ways on both sides. I'm optimistic that a settlement will be found eventually, and that everyone will live "happily ever after"!

The deep history of the troubles between the 2 companies is being discussed currently (in a very calm and factual way) on one of the Welsh Highland Railway Yahoo! groups, and makes interesting reading - it will make a good book in years to come! Is is extremely complex. But if humans can solve much more serious issues (e.g. reconciliation in South Africa, peace in Northern Irelend, etc), I'm sure we are capable of sorting out issues between 2 groups of people who, in all truth, have the same general long term interests and aims at heart - namely the resurrection, preservation and successful running of heritage narrow gauge railways (whilst having fun doing so!).

In the meantime, let's just work together to make all 3 railways (FR, WHR & WHHR) into one of the best small railway networks in the UK.

I say all this as a member of the FRS (Ffestiniog Railway Society), WHRS (Welsh Highland Railway Society / Cymdeithas Rheilffordd Eryri), WHR Ltd (WHHR), FRHG (Ffestiniog Railway Heritage Group) and WHHG (Welsh Highland Heritage Group), and as a volunteer on all 3 railways! (My main involvement at the moment is with the track laying + maintenance groups on the "big" WHR [RhE]).

Here's to happier times ahead!

 

Could you give us more details of this or possibly provide links? Thanks in anticipation.

 

Je crois que non. Notre ami est un veritable troll, et il n'a pas un plan du tout. Il est comme M Le Wayne et le chemin de fer Sn**lb**ch, je crois!:smt050

 

A French troll?

:~)

L

 

How dare you mention Snlbch on this forum!!! We will all be sued, locked up and imprisoned for a million billion years...

 

You've changed your tone haven't you !!! Don't even bother !!!

 

Not bad the French. Firstly, as i have said before many times, (slight blockage) i am not trolling at all, in any shape or form. Secondly, there is no detailed plan as such, at the momment it is at the stage of an proposal, which will be sent to the relevent authorities and as i have already mentioned before on this site, they will decide if there is any potential in the idea. If there is an interest, then the idea will be taken further and a more detailed plan developed. I am not funding this operation, but may have a role to play later. Lastly as i have already stated, this subject is beyond the scope of this site. Hopefully this will calm your undue exicitation !!

 

Now now, don't be nasty.

 

If I may, I'm going to try and distill from Renovator's posts both on here, and from what I can recall of what he wrote on the old forum that has been lost. This is only to try and clear things up, and I am open to being corrected if I get things wrong.

I believe the gist of it is that North Wales Light Rail Transit (NWLRT) wish to see the WHR and FR continue as 2' gauge lines, as the first stage of a comprehensive public transport system, with electric trams (3 car electric articulated, with the centre car containing a generator set) that will eventually encompass Llandudno and Bangor within its remit. They would be run at minimum headways allowed for by the existing infrastructure on both lines (so I would imagine that would be at say 40 - 45 minute intervals, assuming the loops at Plas y Nant, Hafod y Llyn and Pont Croesor are completed to full running standard). The services would be run by the local authorities, presumably taking over the private enterprise of the FR run railways by compulsary purchase, possibly with a consultancy role being taken by Renovator, and would be funded by (this is speculation) closing all the roads to all but local traffic and forcing Joe Public onto the trains, or else by subsidisation from the public purse. There would be no concievable room for heritage (or non-heritage) steam services, since in order to perform a public transport function, the frequency of the trams would have to be such that fitting them in would be impossible.

All the South African stuff would be sold off, all the heritage stuff stuck in a museum (presumably Minffordd Yard, since it'd be the only place big enough to hold it all) and the rest scrapped.

Possibly in winter time, when the traffic flows to sustain such a public transport role would be absent, some of the heritage stuff might be let out to play.

Pretty much, as it happens, a clone of some of the Swiss narrow gauge lines.

The problems, as I see it, are funds (minimal in the public sector), passengers (massively seasonal, and not entirely heading where the trams will be going), speed (if the HMRI, or its successor, even contemplate allowing a 2' gauge line to run at more than 25mph, I'd be astounded) and the massive backlash you'd get from basically taking a pair of privately funded railways, not an inconsiderable sum of that funding coming from individual donations to a particular cause, one rebuilt over a period of over 50 years, one over a period of nearly 20, by blood, sweat, tears and above all love, mostly by unpaid staff, and forcing them into the public sector (who, let us not forget, have got rid of all of their other public transport functions in that time)

I fear it may be a dream to far.

If there are any serious responses to this, that address the points I've raised, I'd love to hear them, really I would.

John

 

With respect John. Not bad at all, but just a little too much speculation, your on the right track though. The one thing i did state, is that there would be no change to existing NG infrastructure including stock, what we are mainly on about here, is an fusion to make the most out of what we have for the public in general and not just for tourists. Nice work though. The rebuilding of the WHR was once a dream !!

 

Have you consulted WHHR or FR on your proposals? This would seem reasonable since,between them, they have rebuilt what was once a dream.