WHR General Discussion.

I think there is little prospect of taking a substantial number of cars off the road until the railway i believe was envisaged in the original business case, is fully realised - open to Port, 2hrs each way, and 60 or so carriages offering a frequent service of 4 or 5 steam and diesel hauled trains.

What i do think is very realistic is that merely opening to Port will help alleviate one of the biggest problems for Beddgelert - coaches. When the whole line is open, people can be put on one end, the coach can take the A road to the other end to pick them up after the train ride with a break at Beddgelert, and everyone is a winner. I even think i read that the railway had agreements with at least one coach company but obviously the delayed opening will have scuppered it to a certain extent. Still, its a real, tangible benefit for the area and one the railway will hopefully prosper from.

Chris

 

Again, you make a statement but don't back it up - what did I not get right?

Stupid cat and mouse games - YES the FACT that you won't answer straight questions proves that.

I am well aware what day it is thank you.

'Read on, read on !!!!' - yet again - what is that supposed to mean? Read what? If you don't tell me what I'm supposed to be looking at then how can I read it?

'Try harder !!' - WHY? Why do you feel it is necessary for me to try harder? Why can't you just be honest and upfront regarding your plans and answer straight questions?

I note that you didn't answer a single point I raised and nor did you put your name to your plans. That says a lot.

A note to the mods - it is quite obvious that 'renovator' is trolling as he/she refuses to answer any questions, but continues to snipe at anyone who disagrees with him/her. I think it is time to either lock the thread or put 'renovator' on moderation.


Keith

 

If your plan to provide a public service had been properly investigated and planned then you would know the answer to this.


Keith

 

(Bold emphasis is mine)

I think here we have the core of the matter.

Renovater is clearly one of the extremely bitter WHHR "extremists" full of bile and hate towards the FR+WHR revival (these "extremists" exist on both "sides" of the WHHR and the FR/WHR divide). Certainly, if you are connected with the WHHR, then your postings bring that railway's reputation right down - which is a shame, because I love the WHHR and think it will have a useful and important role to play in the "Porthmadog Narrow Gauge Network" in the near future.

I can understand the bad feelings, there is a lot of "bad history" between the 2 companies - but I'm optimistic of a happy outcome. OK, so it might take another 2 years, or 20, but it will happen. When I say this, I myself am a member of the FRS, WHRS, WHR Ltd, FRHG and WHHG - and I volunteer on the FR, WHR and WHHR.

However, all your pent-up spite, bitterness, anger and hate will not do your mental health any good - it may be best to seek help or counselling, for your own well-being. I wish you well with that endeavour, and I mean that sincerely.

Kind regards ...

(PS. Guys, you should realise that Renovater is just a WUM - don't worry about it, he's probably laughing his head off at everyone getting all worked up!)

 

In answer to your question, many railway do deals with coach operators as a 'destination', however the WHR is pretty unusual in having a honeypot along its line, which while being very popular is difficult for coach access and parking. I dont think this is a type of traffic which your tramway suggestion would attract, as you need a high-capacity train to cope with several coaches being reserved in advance and more importantly it needs to be an attraction in itself.

Now, perhaps you'd like to answer the various questions you've been asked about the spcifics of this North Wales Tramway idea?

Chris

 

Whoever gave you that idea? Network Rail don't do that. The current project to reopen to Galashiels won't use A3s on Mark 1 stock. Even in the heritage world, look at the Bala Lake Railway or the South Tynedale Railway - I don't see GWR pannier tanks at Bala or first generation DMUs at Alston. The truth is the rebuilders pay their money and take their choice, no doubt based on their interests and the prospective market.

But the FR haven't ripped off someone else's project. They were invited to become involved by Trackbed Consolidation Limited who, you will recall, were members of the WHR '64 Co. albeit ones who had been rejected by their colleagues. To put it bluntly, the rest of the '64 Co. nailed their colours to the wrong mast, and they now have to live with the consequences.

In any case what's the problem? If members of the WHHR want to be involved in running the rebuilt railway, they only have to volunteer. It's not as though the FR has banned them from joining in the fun. They can sign up to join the WHRS just like anyone else. The WHRS committee already has ex '64 Co members on it. So why the moaning?

As for the 'gigantic Garratts and overscale track', do you really think the original WHR would have stuck with inadequate locos and infrastructure if the traffic receipts had permitted otherwise. Get real, the first WHR was a just a preliminary attempt that didn't succeed. Within a few more months the new WHR will have carried more people through the pass than the old company ever did. This is the real Welsh Highland, here and now

Martin Coombs

 

Put more simply, why the hell would anyone want to rebuild an exact replica of a failed railway? Wouldn't a commercially-viable one make more sense?

 

All,

I'm going to tidy up this forum to remove the flame posts..again.
A certain member has recieved a few more warnings.

Hopefully this afternoon will be a bit quieter and more objective.

In the interests of peace.. can I suggest Private Messaging to vent off, rather than in here.

Please think before posting... your comments will be here for all to see, much longer than the seconds it takes to write them.

 

"North Wales Light Rail Transit"?? A scheme so prominent and well-developed it doesn't even Google. It exists purely inside Mr Renovater's (sic) head until he proves otherwise. So come on Mr Renovator, reveal all or drop it, becuase it's getting very boring now. Iain

 

In essence I agree with you and what you have outlined is what I believe should roughly be the case. However I think it would be a major adavntage if it could run a modern multiple unit type narrow gauge type train as one of these trains if the capital cost could be covered as it would be a much cheaper alternative to run out of season or peak hours. However I think that the capital cost is a major problem which is why I have inessence tried to think of public/private alternatives whereby the FR operates the Tourist trains, aand someone else runs a public service which would probably be loss making. You could argue that the FR could be subsidised but am not sure there is a public appetite for that.

With regard to coaches I entirely agree. The roads west of Beddgelert are not designed for coaches and I would prohibit coaches and large lorries except for access as there are plenty of alternative routes.

 

I feel we've been over this several time before but im happy to go through it again. A bespoke multiple unit is much more expensive for off-peak and out of season trains than simply running a diesel loco on 4 or 5 coaches. Both already exist, a known quantity maintenance-wise and (if spare) available for use.

Not only is there the cost of designing a modern 2ft DMU to the FR/WHR guage, getting type approval and building it (a modern design would likely have to meet modern design standards for disabled access, signage etc) - but if it was to fail then thats the whole unit out of operation. With loco hauled trains, you just change the engine or carriage with the fault for another. For proof of this, look at the 3 modern railcars sitting in the Snowdon Mountain Railway's carpark.

Chris

 

I did say if the capital cost could be met! I also appreciate that simply running a diesel loco and coaches might be an option but whilst they have advantages they also have disadvantanges. e.g meeting modern disabled access etc.

I do not seriously expect the WHR to rush at the idea at present but in general I feel that as individuals who have an interest in railway and steam preservation that we sometimes get blinkered in our approach and views. The WHR gives an opportunity in my view to mix the traditional, steam hauled trains with something new. After all the FR has a history of being innovative from the Double Fairlies to modern Steel coaches, push pull trains

Maybe thinking outside the box will prove pointless but it is at least worth doing

 

Define "fast." Have you seen some, (a lot, OK, most) of the bends on the WHR? Some would give the Mad Mouse a run for its money. I speak as a great admirer of the WHR, not a detractor. The WHR is many wonderful things, but fast is not one of them. What are you anticipating? Pendotrams? There may be scope for putting a round robin system in place, there may be scope for re-instating Bangor-Caernarfon, or even Bangor-Afon Wen at some point in the future, but the WHR is, and will remain, a tourist railway. It has a brilliant future as such and, together with the FR, will form one of the greatest tourist transport systems on the planet - I hope.

 

public services

Just scanning through it all.

Had a look online as well. The only thing similar was one for Rhyl that had been proposed using cascaded tram stock as a park and ride. link below.

http://www.lightrailuk.com/pdf/seatram.pdf

As far as offering public services and the future this if I remember correctly was a discussion had with other trackgang members.

The two welsh Highland sections in my opinion that would be best suited are a shuttle Between Port and Beddgelert. Maybe if compatibility issues could be resolved a double header of Russell and an England with coaching stock from both heritage fleets or alternatively two locomotives with their own stock passing at the loop at Pont Croesor. Just an idea.

The other would be to petition Network Rail to reopen the Bangor to Caernarfon route and build an interchange like at Blaenau or build a phase 5 section with a diesel and 4 or 5 coaches as a shuttle service between Bangor and Caernarfon.

Anyway that just a few of my own thoughts on the matter.

Regards

Duncan

 

I suppose the word fast is subjective but presently Caernarfon to Hafod y Llyn is timetabled to take between 1:50 and 2:05. In the latter case there is from experience a fair bit of waiting around at Beddgelert and Rhyd Ddu. I think a fair bit could be paired from this once all the line is fettled for 25mph running.

It is why I like the idea of one modern traction set if and repeat if this route could be gone down as I presume they could have greater acceleration and deceleration but also
would speed up station stops.

Yes parts of the line are very twisty but plenty are fairly straight, Port To Nantmor, Caernarfon to Dinas again hypothetically could be run at decent speeds especially if the 25mph limit was lifted.

I know this is presently blue sky thinking and it makes no commercial sense the WHR or FR going down this route. Running packed fairly long tourist trains is their bread and butter.

However I like to think that one day the transport policy in this country will change and that just as roads have been heavily subsidised over years that railways and especially rural routes will one day be heavily in favour. Commercially did the comeback of trams in Manchester etc stack up against the adding a few more buses. Probably not but there were other reasons that in favour of the reintroduction of trams.

Presently there is no commercial reason for the WHR to be anything but a tourist attraction. But I live in hope that one day a change in policy and public views will mean that non commercial reasons will be a driving force and that public subsidies or whatever will support this.

 

Mr renovator is on Google, in another rail forum I done a google search by inputting "north wales light railway projects" and among all the other stuff that came up was www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=980&t=49750 it is another forum you have to register to read any of the topics, I have'nt bothered as I read enough of renovator's crap on here without wanting any more in the search topic on Google is said someone is proposing a project to run a tramway over the WHR/FR and apparently has written his rubbish on this forum, it does not mention Mr Renovator but I don't think anyone else has such a silly daft idea!!! all this rubbish about the WHR not making it or being a success is just like the crap people who rubbished the building of Tornado in the early years, scores of people said it would'nt happen, in fact some of the names they called the A1Trust is unprintable, they said Network Rail would never allow it on the main line, now look what happened Tornado is a roaring success, who is eating big slices of humble pie now!!!

 

The thread appears to have been deleted, although by searching under those terms on google i see its cached if people really want to see it. A pretty obvious attempt at trolling even by his standards.

Chris

 

May we now get back to talking about the steam narrow gauge railways of north west Wales?

BTW: shouldn't the title of this thread be "What kind of future will the WHR have?"?

L

 

Hi

 

OK I appreciate my wording was not the best, in essence I meant the sections of line that when fettled are due for 25mph working but are currently restricted