WHR General Discussion.

Hear, hear! I roared with laughter at several of M. Rennie's posts. In my head, I'm hearing them with a comic French accent. The poor grammar and odd turns of phrase reinforce this impression. More Austin Powers than Bond villain, methinks.

More generally, this is, by turns, a facinating and infuriating thread, illustrating all that's best and worst about railway preservation: on the one hand, the increadible dreams made into reality; on the other, the blinkered opinions of some, insensitivty of others, and long-nursed grudges of near-Balkan proportions.

I've just got back from my second visit to the WHR. Last time I was there was 2006. I have to say I'm very impressed with the scale of the achievement, the breathtaking scenery and the popularity of the trains. I tried to take a ride from Bedgelert to Hafod-y-llyn but was told that the train was full - I had to go back another time! Mind you, not all the trains were so full and on one I saw, the (gorgeous) Pullman observation car was empty apart from one member of staff! The new bits still look very new and slightly out-of-place, but the older section is weathering in very nicely and looks like part of the landscape.

On the subject of the Garrat locos: I think they are wonderful, exactly in the spirit of Welsh Narrow Gauge lines. I'm sure that if the original WHR's management could have afforded one, back in 1923 or whenever it was, they'd have jumped at the chance. I have to say though, that I was ever so slightly disappointed that they didn't put on a little more of a "show". Even with 9 carriages and a bike wagon, the only place they really make much chimney noise is the upper part of the climb through Bedgelert forest. I suppose that such trains are well within their capabilities, so they are only worked hard on the very steepest section. I'm very interested and pleased to hear that developments to improve their efficientcy (e.g. Lempor exhaust) are being made, and I hope this continues.

Sentimentally, I'd love to see locos like Lyd, Prince and Russell hauling smaller trains but realistically, I know that they are not viable on their own, only as a compliment to the "big" trains.

As for the folks at Gelerts Farm, I have some sympathy for them. However, whatever the rights and wrongs, they are where they are and if they want a share of the WHR in the future, hatchets need to be burried and goodwill established. The (sad?) reality is that they need good relations with the FR rather more than vice versa. Has anyone considered that one thing they could add to the WHR is a direct (or at least, very close) interchange with NR's station? "Herritage" trains between the Harbour, Network Rail and a future park-and-ride could be a very useful niche operation.

So, does the WHR have a future? I'd say so, especially once the link with the FR at Porthmadog is complete. I hope that a "park-and-ride" station can be incorporated into the Porthmadog by-pass plans. It would be ideal for visitors to the town and to the National Park.

 

WHR future thread

I first of all have to agree with steamage. Reading back through the the thread and it is some reading it has been amazing how much has been discussed. Regardless of the motives behind starting the thread it has been interesting to hear everyones opinions.

Also to reply to lost login thanks for clearing it up with the linespeed. My apologies with the misunderstanding.

Having seen the news also congratulations for the money that has been raised with the NG15 appeal. Although around £2000 its a start towards the restoration needed for it to steam once more.

I know there's a lot of work to do on the already openned sections. Biggest problem has been finding the time to get up there. Hopefully this winter time permitting.

The one big benefit with upgrading the sections is there is at least some standardisation of the track. As far as I can remember-please correct me if I'm wrong- there are four main types of track- South African (nuts bolts labour intensive but lasts, the Indian pandrol clipped track (quicker to maintain), traditional style wooden sleepered track with steel baseplates and sleeper screwes and finally the tramway track. Although theres not one type throughout the standardisation there is does mean there less tools needed when we need to go to a number of sections of the route in a day.

Looking to the future as mentioned long term Pont Croesor crossings are the first of the obstacles when extending to Porthmadog. I suspect given when time and crutially the money are avaliable I'm sure they'll all be completed.

Regards

Duncan

 

OK then, question for the WHR/FR experts, what will be the benefits of running regularly to Portmadoc against the costs of getting everything needed sorted out? If next summer proves as successful as this summers appears to be on both the WHR/FR is the incentive really going to be there to spend £Xmillion to run those extra few miles into Harbour station?

 

Knowbody can answer that question with any degree of certainty as firstly I am not aware that the costs to complete have been published or of the projections in terms of passenger numbers. My view though is that once complete and running for a couple of years that a Port - Bedd return may prove to be the most popular ticket, followed by whole length signal tickets to coach parties. How that will impact on current numbers or the FR again is pure conjecture but I presume that there is a worry that people will choose to do say Port - Bedd return rather than the FR.

I would also ask the contrary question what if any are the downsides if the FR chose to go down that route you suggest. I would guess there would be a loss of goodwill from various parties, including those who have donated to the project. I might also be concerned with regard to grant funding as I expect it was provided with conditions. I doubt if they said here is £X million spend it as you see fit getting as far as you want. It should also be remembered that in the past there were strong objections to terminating in Beddgelert/Snowdonia National Park and one of the planks for obtaining funding was that once complete it would take traffic of the road.

I therefore think that not running into Harbour is not an option, but I can see that here may be a business case of delaying from the FR’s perspective. I can also see that in terms of publicity and passenger numbers there is merit in opening part of the line as at each point it may initially attract more of both. It also makes little sense to start running over the Cambrian until ERTMS has been installed and running, whilst I could also see an argument that “it is in the public good” to delay until the Porthmadog bypass is completed. But that I think is as long as it could be stretched out and I hope that it is not the case and that we see trains running to Harbour at some point next year.

 

It would be a strange concept to build possibly the most expensive piece of 60cm gauge railway in this country and then decide not to use it.

By the early spring of this year all the operational details had been worked out to use the current layout, and train and loco crews had attended training sessions to use the one platform this year.

As far as I know the major obsticle to running into Port is the signalling contract. This covers all 3 crossings at PC, Snowdon St and Britannia Bridge. Once done, and assuming there is ERTMS on the Cambrian, the plans and timetable created earlier this year can be be enacted.

Later we have to sort out everything from Carriages ( or lack of them), ETS, loop at PC, and station facilities.

Whilst there is only one platform at Port there is a simple limitation on the number of trains using the station each day. Until a second platform is built somewhere, we can not turn around more trains, or find many extra paths.

Regards

Peter

 

Despite being wide open above Beddgelert you can't hear much over the steam leaks on 143 and 87 has a lempor so sounds a bit rubbish. The FR is still the place to be for NG thrash, Blanche and Merddin Emrys sound great after a bit of re-drafting earlier this year.
Tim

 

I am not speaking as an expert but I will be up there like a shot as soon as through trains are running. It's a great railway already and has huge potential. At the moment I feel that it is not quite complete. I might be an eccentric but I would happily travel from Caernafon to Blaenau Ffestiniog. As a fairly frequent visitor to north Wales, I prefer to be based in Porthmadog; it's handier for mine and SWMBO's interests. A train ride and then a mountain ramble is a favourite day out. It would be great if we could do it from Porthmadog.

Cheers
Alan

 

Most certainly, I much prefer the FR scenery anyway we just need more of it.

 

Like looking at trees, eh?

 

How many trees does he need? Or mountains?

 

I still reckon the Vale of Rheidol is the best place in Wales for a bit of NG noise, especially approaching Devils Bridge where the sound is probably hemmed in my the rock face on one side.

 

Read my post properly and you'll notice the "we just need more of it." bit

 

Its not just the scenery of the WHR, its the variety and how it unfolds on a journey - leaving Port on a clear day will be quite an experience for passengers as you head for the mountains and see the cut in the mountains as trains head for the pass, then see them closing around you before entering the tunnels and emerging onto into Aberglaslyn. I cant wait!

Chris

 

Compared to loco's on the FfR, the VoR tanks sound very tame. The best noise on Welsh NG however has to be standing on the balcony on the Welshpool and Llanfair climbing Dolarddyn bank 3ft away from a hard working loco.

It would be interesting to see and hear a VoR tank on the Welsh Highland though. Maybe in a few years a 2ft gauge superpower gala could be run with one of the VoR tanks, Brecon's Baldwin pacific, an NG15?, the Harrogate Peckett etc. The WHR is an idel place to put these engines to the test.

 

Now there's an idea (assuming they'd be within gauge)

 

Almost certainly within gauge, physically, and they even have compatable couplings both on the VoR and BMR, but the braking systems would preclude usage on the WHR for passenger trains. The other problem is that both the BMR and VoR use 2' gauge proper, whereas the WHR has had both the trackwork, and stock, regauged to 1'11.5", and thus the back to back measurements are such that pointwork on the WHR could only be negotiated at an exceptionally slow speed, with no guarantees that they would stay on.

This is, of course, assuming that either the VoR or BMR would be willing to let their locos out, which is highly unlikely - I don't think locos from either railway have ever visited any other.

John

 

Mountaineer visited the VoR in 1987 (I think) so a reciprocal visit is overdue! I know it's highly unlikely to happen but it would definitely generate a huge amount of interest.

In the same year, perhaps one of the Puffing Billy NA tanks could visit the W&L too!

 

There is obviously a history of FR locos working on the VoR going back to well before preservation days, although I do not recall the arrangement reciprocated. Presumably as the VofR were Cambrian or GWR loco's and part of a national company even if there had been a request they would not have been keen to hire out to another company. Presumably the FR had all the locos it needed in number anyway.

 

Noise and thrash are a big thing for me when going on steam railways, that is my only gripe with the WHR, there's not enough noise.