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New builds of extinct diesels

Discussion in 'Diesel & Electric Traction' started by ady, Sep 22, 2009.

  1. Fireman Dave

    Fireman Dave New Member

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    There's probably a good reason why some classes of diesels never got preserved. They didn't last because they were no good. Some classes of steamer are worth doing because they did have quite long lives, just not quite long enough (i.e. they were worn out then scrapped).
     
  2. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    well if i was insanely rich id build a falcon, there was nothing wrong with the original, very successful loco which was sadly very quickly overtaken by newer technology (brush 47's)
     
  3. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

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    Who would pay for such a thing...? Well, I can honestly say that if I had a few million quid burning a hole in my pocket I'd sooner build a replica NBL type 2 than almost any steam engine. Bit of a big 'if' though...!

    As for the argument that they weren't preserved because they were no good... well, not really, the class 28 got preserved but was a pretty unsuccessful design, it just got lucky. It wasn't the fact that they were no good that stopped people preserving early diesels, it was the fact that they were withdrawn before diesel preservation really took off. It really comes down to the fact that the people in the 1960s, 70s and 80s with the money were the generation which remembered steam and wanted to preserve that. Nothing wrong with that at all, its just a shame that we ended up with a completely skewed selection of preserved engines - steam and diesel.

    I can't think of any early diesel type more deserving of having a replica built than an NBL type 2 (of whichever variety & with all its faults). It would plug a major gap in the story of development of the British main line diesel engine, whereas a replica of any of the various scrapped prototype diesels would be nothing more than a curiosity.

    It will probably never happen but I hope I'm proved wrong!

    Phil
     
  4. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    a major gap ? the class 22 >The technology used is represented by the Warships preserved so how would a replica illustrate the diesel development story? Id have loved D6312 to be preserved but I dont think there would be any point other than sentiment in building a new class 22 (or any other diesel). Building a replica prototype would at least REALLY plug a gap in the development story as they were essentially that...development of the diesel loco.
     
  5. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Actually i think they would make an interesting comparison. They may use the same technology as far as propulsion is concerned but the actual construction is very different. The old fashioned heavy almost steam age design of the class 22 is very different to the lightweight space age design of the warship. A warship weighs about 80 tons yet has twice as much power as a 65 ton class 22. It's an example of a loco built by a predominately steam loco building company grudgingly accepting that diesel is the way forward. I don't think we really have an example of that anywhere else.

    Tim
     
  6. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    There are a number of Beyer-Peacock built Hymeks and Class 25's, Class 20, 37 and 40 by RSH etc still around. Brush were also a steam loco builder in one of their earlier incarnations too.
     
  7. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

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    Yes but the NBL diesels pretty much killed off their builder, which had until then been one of Britain's biggest exporters of locomotives. A major gap therefore due to who built them and what they did for the history of the company, and also the NBL diesels collectively were possibly the biggest waste of money of the BR Modernisation Plan, so they're significant (for all the wrong reasons) as part of the history of BR's headlong rush to get rid of steam 'at any cost'. And they also look nice!

    I would argue that there are enough one-off prototypes surviving to show the principle of building a prototype, testing it and refining it for the production run (or deciding not to build any more). 'Deltic' is the obvious one but there are also D0226, 89001, and probably others I've forgotten. Building a replica of a prototype doesn't really prove anything that the original didn't, whereas building a replica of a production type at least allows us to demonstrate traction which was 'typical' for a particular time and place.

    That said if anyone wanted to build a replica 'Fell' I think I'd have to support that one!

    Phil
     
  8. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Sorry to labour the point but the Hymeks and 25's did exactly the same thing to Beyer-Peacock, in fact they had to ask to be released from the contract to build the last few 25's, which ended up being built at Derby.
     
  9. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    you make a good point there about the heavyweight construction. Certainly the class 42 and 43 Warships and the Westerns used lightweight stressed-skin construction radically different to the class 22/41s . However I think early diesel electrics would also be classed as heavyweight so I still dont think this enough of a hole in the Diesel Story to make it worth filling it and feel there would be more merit in one or more of 10000/1,10201/2/3,15000/100 or even D600/4. another contender (although electric in this case, 20001/2/3)

    My vote would go to 15000 seeing as its still with us....
     
  10. buseng

    buseng Part of the furniture

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    Do you mean 18000/100 for the gas turbines?
     
  11. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    thats what i typed but my wife has been changing round the leys on my PC..... ;-)
     
  12. ady

    ady Well-Known Member

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    So its a maybe in phyiscal terms it could come off, but possiby not enough surport. Intreseting discussion though.
     
  13. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    i think the difference for many years to come between steam and diesel preservation will be there will be MORE steam engiones built (replicas or whatever you wish to call them) and lots of now preserved diesels scrapped. Theres an over supply of them at presnt to a massive extent and no need for more to be built...(in fact you COULD say the same applies to steam...)
     
  14. 45045

    45045 New Member

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    You could take 2 x 08s and produce a 13. But if that is too slow for the preserved lines, how about a 13/1 produced from 2 x 09s?
     
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  15. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    pmsl.....great craic...
     
  16. wickhamfan

    wickhamfan New Member

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    Plenty of shunters??? - over the last few years the numbers have slowly dwindled and although I havent checked the latest edition of the IRS 'bible', suspect numbers have now fallen to below 20 remaining, and not many in operational condition (my own included).

    The biggest reason many of the early diesels were killed off was not necessarily down to them being failures, simply that in many cases the traffic they were designed for simply dried up, and as members of small classes they became designated 'non standard', and thus were sold off to industry or scrapped.

    Surprised no-one has mentioned the forerunner to the HST - a Blue Pullman! - also powered by MAN's supplied by NBL.
     
  17. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    I did a quick google search on the MAN engine for the class 21 and it shows there is one surviving in Sri Lanka ...

    http://www.srilankanlocos.com/data/data.html

    S3
    Machinenfabrik (German) Diesel Hydraulic. 880hp. Imported in the 1960's Non operational.
    1 DMU is in operation running local service between Galle & Matara
    Builder : MAN Germany
    Weight : 47 tons
    Power : 880hp MAN V12 L12V18./21 (4 stroke)


    I'd imagine chances are high in Germany of finding a similar MAN engine specification.
     
  18. ady

    ady Well-Known Member

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    I imagen that cost more to build a new 'Blue Pullman' then just the one locomotive. Is that the same engines as the 21?

    Well I wouldn't have thought you need to go to Srilanka for just a engine!

    Talking to a chap at Swanage who a member of the Western Locomoitves Group, the group recoved a spear Maybach engine from Denmark which was never used for railway purposes. So it possible that a Man L12V18./21 engine could turn up being used generater or something.

    What sort of Transmission does a class 21 need? (Hydraulic I know before some smart ass points that out but which maker etc.)
     
  19. pinkpanther

    pinkpanther New Member

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    Class 22 were the ones with hydraulic transmission. Classes 21 (and 29, which were re-engined with Paxman engines from the original class 21 build) had electric transmissions.
     
  20. buseng

    buseng Part of the furniture

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    Voith I think, Pretty sure both sorts of NBL Warships had voith transmissions (As did the Westerns). Not sure of the model No though. As mentioned in the previous post, it was class 22.
    Update, D6300-D6305 Voith L306r.
    D6306-D6357 Voith LT306r.
     

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