WHR General Discussion.

I like alternative opinions, and have some of my own, but if you are going to post about them on a forum repeatedly they have to be backed up by a decent argument, and a willingness when people point out problems to take them into account.

As you point out, what you propose for the WHR was going to be run on the IMR when the track and LC's were being upgraded, but the sums didnt add up despite the line having a much more competitive journey time - steam trains take just 10 mins longer than the bus end-to-end and only (!) twice the time taken by car.

Indeed, you only have to remember the trouble they had getting people to use the service, especially in its first year which only managed on average 24 people per service, to realise that price alone is a big factor however much people prefer the train.. and as we've already established, there is no way the WHR service would ever be subsidised. The IMR is a great example of what can appear to be a good idea very rapidly falls apart under closer inspection.

Chris

 

And the evidence for this is?

 

As I said I believe, i.e. it is my opinion. I am not sure how you want me to provide you with evidence that that it is my opinion.

Pick me up on lack of evidence if I state that it is a fact people would use not if I state that I believe it to be the case.

In fact in this case it would probably be fairly easy to produce evidence as the consultants reports that people would be attracted to use but not enough to recover the capital outlay viable, which you will see is something I agree with. I am sure if I looked at the newspaper archives from around the time there was also a fair amount of disputing the consultants figures with regard to potential use.

 

They got much wrong in the first year apart from the costs and the IoM railways although off topic is a perfect example of how not to have a chance of running trains at a profit. e.g all staff are as I understand it still on fixed 9 to 5, five day a week contracts. Thus they have to agree to work at weekends and then are on overtime. Same presmably with lighting up in the morning etc etc

I do not think there was ever any intention on running at 40mph on the IoM railways with modern traction as typically for the IoM Govt they built it to that standard and then thought about should they actually change how they operate. The view of many of us tax payers was why did you not think about this before hand and if the capital costs were not a goer then presumably you could have saved some money and built to say 25mph standard. Having built it to the standard they did the view of many was that as the IoM Govt seemed to like wasting money on gradios capital schemes anyway lobbing a couple of million at some modern stock was a small drop in the ocean.

Ultimately I am off a different opinion to you and some other but I do honestly believe as you see that if it was not for the capital cost there is a roll for modern stock on some narrow gauge lines especially for out of season out of peak when the steamers may not be economic to run or out for maintenace over the winter. Some standard gauge lines which go from X to middle of nowhere see merit in runnig DMU's ourt of season which is why I struggle to understand aside from the capital cost why there would be no merit in Narrow Gauge doing likewise. You disagree which is fine but it is purely hypothetical as unless somebody turns up with a huge wedge of cash nobody is going to sink in the required capital cost.

 

Well I suppose if hundreds of narrow gauge dmus had been withdrawn in the eighties then we would already see such a service operating. Sadly, there has been no such pool of suitable stock to draw on.

Meic

 

Seeing as the FR has raised £30 million to rebuild the WHR in the form we see it today, the question has to be asked: If everyone is so damned clever in retrospect, why didn't they raise the cash themselves and do the job properly?

Obviously, we've wasted tens of thousands of man years' effort building a completely inadequate railway. Why on earth didn't we listen to the experts, who have no doubt built any number of successful commuter lines themselves?

Sorry about that. How could we have been so stupid?

 

I think every taxpayer is to blame for being fooled into believing that the railway would provide a transport link and reduce the number of cars entering the National Park.
We have indeed been very stupid.

 

There's no monopoly on stupidity in the railway world, friends. Just start from the top and see the WHR venture in context.

:~|

 

Hopefully my last post on the topic but as I have repeatedly said the capital cost of building ot acquiring requiring a modern unit unless the fairy godmother comes along makes such an idea prohibitive. However if only operating costs are considered then as a businessman I would be extremely annoyed if I could not make it run at a profit. It is the capital costs that sink the possibility.

THE DMU reference was only an example of this in that presumably with little or no capital outlay it is obvious that even on less on less attractive/scenic lines they still attract sufficient passengers to cover the coperating costs or presumably they would not operate.

In reply to Andrew T I do not think I have ever said the WHR was inadequate, as a tourist railway it does its job which is to run fairly full trains along its route. I have only ever raised the subject of it being used as a local transport link and it getting traffic off roads because that was one of the statements that has been continually made in respect of obtaining grants etc. From memory it reference was again made to this aspect of the railway in the speeches when the line was formally re opened to Beddgelert.

Now you, Christopher 125 and others are staing there is no such market which as Lez Watson says "I think every taxpayer is to blame for being fooled into believing that the railway would provide a transport link and reduce the number of cars entering the National Park." I would not go that far but I think whilst the FR has been very good at getting grants I am surprised that now it has had the money it apparently is making so little apparent effort to at least give the impression that it is attempting to meet these criteria.

If as you say there is no demand, it is purely a tourist railway etc then you would have to question the obtaining of grants partly on the back of it being a transport link in the area, cars of the road etc. Fortunately I am not a UK tax payer based in Wales but if I had been I might be a bit miffed how my taxes have been spent.

This is all a bit off topic ultimately which is does the WHR have a future? Well as a tourist railway yes. In respect of providing a transport link, getting cars off the road then apparently not. Does it matter? Probably not but as it was put forward as one of the reasons behind rebuilding and obtaining grants then do not be surprised if there is or was an expectation along these lines and that it will occasionally be referred to.

Ultimately that is my only real issue on the matter which is if you say something do it, or keep quiet in the first place.

 

You might find that the WAG cash was intended to create jobs in the area by generating additional tourist revenue, rather than providing a replacement for an already underused bus service.

Can I point you at the study done by Bangor University that shows the FR&WHR are generating over £9 million a year to the local economy and creating 350 jobs on top of the 60 full time employees of the railway itself?

This research was done a couple of years ago when the WHR only ran as far as Rhyd Ddu. The figures then predicted that the contribution would rise to 400 jobs and £14 million when the WHR was open in full.

As WHR loadings are currently 85% above predicted figures, it's safe to assume that the £14 million figure is something of an underestimate.

The WAG and the taxpayer are getting an extremely good return on their investment.

 

The WHR never set out to run all-year commuter services, the business case would never have stood up for reasons already well explored in this thread. However, it WILL remove cars and coaches from Beddgelert and the roads leading to it by giving tourists, who cause the congestion, another way of visiting the area during the busiest times of the year. There's no 'fooling' involved.

Chris

 

In all the discussions so far, there has been little or no mention of the 'leisure' market. This is totally different from the two extremes of 'commuter' and 'tourism' elements that most people have been concentrating on.

The Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways 'Y Cerdyn' railcard has produced and encouraged an important traffic source. This card is available to all residents of North Wales; it costs just £10, is valid for 5 years and permits travel at one-third of the normal fare - on an unlimited number of occasions - on both the Ffestiniog and the Welsh Highland Railways. In line with our normal ticketing arrangements, adult card holders can take one accompanying child with them free of charge... As a result, several thousand 'Y Cerdyn' railcards are currently in circulation - and the numbers of non-renewed cards are very low.

As card-holders are residents in the area, they mostly travel at weekends and at 'off-peak' times of the year - using the railway as a means of enjoying their leisure time. This 'leisure' travel produces a very different traffic flow from that generated by the 'tourist' market. One of the most obvious examples of this is the large numbers of family groups that travel to the 'Snowdonia Parc' brewpub in Waunfawr for Sunday lunch.

The pub has 'always' been there... the road journey from Caernarfon to Waunfawr is half the distance and takes one-third of the time required by the train... so, in this case, it's not that the railway has created a demand for travel, or provided a more convenient means of transport. What it has done is supply a 'family-friendly' experience that's more attractive than the "let's jump in the car and nip to the pub for lunch" alternative.

That's just one example of the way 'Y Cerdyn' is used... In response to public demand, as they say, we also issue railcards for dogs and bikes. This enables dog-walkers and cyclists to travel further afield and walk/cycle back to their point of origin.

In most of these cases, the only practical alternative would have been for card-holders to have used their cars. The railways do, therefore, provide a public transport function - though aimed at the leisure market, rather than the 'commuter' sector, for which they are patently unsuitable.

*On the Ffestiniog Railway, there's an 'Y Cerdyn' holder who uses the railway as part of his weekly shopping trip to Porthmadog Tesco's... He lives in Tanygrisiau, just outside Blaenau Ffestiniog, and walks all the way to Porthmadog via the paths past Cwmorthin, Rhosydd and Croesor quarries - then catches a train back..!

 

Is that a promise?

 

The WHR speed limit at the top end is 20mph. There is no QUICK. I was on the footplate the other week. Leaving Rhyd Ddu towards Beddgelert, as we ran alongside the road, we were overtaken by an empty service bus. We had 9 well-filled coaches in tow. People will use it to travel and enjoy the scenery. If they are local and there is a cheap local ticket, they may choose to use it, but they will not use it for speed. It's not, and never will be a 40mph line. Get real. There is no case for DMUs or trams. It's a tourist line and for locals if they want to, especially if they want to have a drink!

 

North Wales transit

Due to the increased amount of interest in the North Wales Transit scheme it has been given it's own thread. Please use the link below for this topic.
There wont be any need to use the WHR thread for this subject any further.
:smt051

http://railways.national-preservation.com/showthread.php?t=20629

Both topics will continue to be moderated.

 

new diesel

Is it me or has one recent bit of the welsh highland been missed but the arrival of a certain 0-6-0 diesel. Although it will be a little while before it could take over from one of the two current pway diesels...

Maybe one of these could be used on the fire train duties??

Regards

Duncan

 

Please explain. (I hear riddles.)

 

www.isengard.co.uk/#News scroll down a bit.

 

Apologies if this has been asked previously.

Without trawling through all the pages, could someone enlighten me as to why the attached link has not been updated since August It used to update nearly daily has something happened?

http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/whr.htm

 

Sadly the webmaster, Dr Ben Fisher died suddenly. Try a search on his name for more info.