6100 Royal Scot

Wednesbury! Oh well, that explains it!
Oi'll give it foive!

 

Indeed !!!!

 

The majority I wouild say have no real life recollections

Well, speaking for myself, I certainly have got dozens, if not hundreds, of pictures of Royal Scots in action (all taken by myself) and I haven’t even reached retirement age yet.

Furthermore, my own “real-life recollections” also include many happy memories of journeys made behind members of the class on main-line express duties, so, given that I still 'lineside' on a very regular basis and still encounter friends I knew in those days, I guess that I DO consider myself as being FAR from being in the minority!

Our friend “Sheff” probably doesn’t realise it, but, within his ill-considered words, he has still managed to hit on the hub of the problem ... the “majority” today actively involved in "preservation" do actually retain no “real life recollections” of that which they believe they are attempting to “preserve”.

My view, for what it’s worth, is that those adopting such blinkered attitudes can possess little appreciation of what they should be attempting to conserve and the correct manner in which this should be done. As such, from what reads in this forum, it would appear that many find themselves easily led by arguably hostile and arrogant states of mind emanating from the likes of David Ward and his cronies and that is unfortunate – especially for the generations to come who will rely upon us to convey an accurate historical record.

“Let’s have a bit of variety eh?” was what was being uttered by another “minority” in the late 1960s, at a time when we came to see a Furness Railway-liveried Black 5, a maroon BR-built Ivatt 2-6-0 (with LMS carriage logo), along with Caledonian and LNWR-liveried BR-built 2-6-4Ts. How long did such mindsets exist …. before common sense prevailed, I would submit?

 

And how many today could honestly admit to actually lamenting the demise of those liveries on those engines?

 

I couldn't agree with you more. I believe that once those who saw the locos in working service have passed away we should just scrap the lot of them, as there's no way younger generations can possibly have any appreciation for history and preservation. ;-)

C'mon, there are enough historical records out there for even us youngsters to realise that a rebuilt 6100 in maroon isn't an accurate reflection of history. I thoroughly enjoy hearing and learning about the history from those who saw it all first hand and thankfully much of that is also documented in words and pictures for future generations. A maroon Scot, or apple green double chimneyed A3 isn't going to change any of that, in just the same way that a Furness Black 5 and maroon Ivatt didn't, but I'll put a wager on those locos still bringing a smile to many faces, if not yours. I'd rather see a loco restored and preserved with an innaccurate top coat of paint than rusting away in a siding somewhere. At least then future generations will have the opportunity to choose an authentic livery when the locos ownership passes down to them.

 

Complete tosh. It is just a coat of paint - it's not for life for goodness sake. The only thing that really matters is that these engines are preserved - i.e not rusting away, and are restored i.e. to working order. All of this takes real dedication and considerable skill, plus a shed load of money. I know, I've helped in all those ways. What colour it gets painted is of little consequence, as it can soon be repainted all over again. And for the record, I spent many happy days on a maroon Ivatt 2-6-2 with KWVR logo. No one ever walked up and moaned about it, and now of course it's in BR black. Same engine. So I suggest it is not we that are "blinkered" but those who like yourself are only interested in their own dogma. I'm more than happy just to experience working steam irrespective of the hue. Just remember, without the preservationists, there'd be nothing to paint in the first place. :deadhorse:

 

Some interesting points Paul. Some years ago I was talking to John Jolly down at Mangapps about the possibility of his Fox Walker being restored to working order. His reply was very interesting. He'd discussed things with an industrial archaeologist and had been told that as an example of late Victorian locomotive construction it was worth more to the historian if left in its unrestored state. Restoring it to working order would introduce so much new material and repair techniques that it would greatly diminish its value to the industrial historian. So what price any "historically accurate record" regarding locos running today? It does seem from posts on here that historical accuracy only goes as far as the paint job.

 

In the Frost place?
All joking aside, there was a good precedent to paint the Ivatt in a KWVR house livery. When locos change ownership they generally change livery so the KWVR painting as it did was no different than what happened at the Grouping and Nationalisation. The KWVR maroon phase was but one chapter in the history of the loco.

 

I thought in the 60s and 70s there was a ban on privately owned locos wearing BR livery, so railways had to paint their locos in pre-grouping/nationalisation or if they were BR built they had to paint them in a fictitious livery or an inauthentic livery. Or did I make that up?

 

i see this from both points of view. i've always held the belief that the owner has the right to paint HIS/HER property exactly as they want. it has nothing to do with anyone else. but and it is a big but except for cases where it is historically inaccurate such as royal scot and scotsman (is it something to do with locos with scot in the name) where loco's are wearing a bastardised version of a livery that clashes with something historically accurate. ie rebuilt scot but in LMS livery or scotsman apple green but with smoke deflectors. come on lets have one or the other and the two owning organisations are meant to be nationally recognised responsible organisations. i contributed to the scotsman appeal 6 years ago to help the NRM purchase it but it would be nice to see it how most people remember it in full apple green without deflectors as for royal scot well the fact is it never wore red in the form it is now! simples!

 

we cant change history as much as we'd like to be able to!

 

Personally, I fall in to the "couldn't care less what colour it is painted" camp, but I wonder if all the hot air on this topic may be misplaced - the loco is undergoing a change of ownership and one wonders if the person who has been so insistent on it being painted red will be quite so prominent in the new organisation.

 

Am I the only the person who can't understand why people are obsessed with recreating one of the worst periods in British railway history. Anyone visiting the majority of preserved railways today will think railways were invented out of thin air in 1948 and then disappeared in 1968. I think this is clouding the history of future generations not the fact the 6100 is painted a dodgy shade of red. Just take a look at the Black 5 fleet not, a single one is currently operating in LMS livery. How will anyone who is not an avid railway fan know that it’s an important design that represents a departure from the old Midland practices of the LMS. I’m glad a few places Bluebell, Beamish, Festiniog and NRM for example try to show a broader historical view and projects such as the Large Bloomer and Railmotor are filling real gaps. It's a shame that the post-war BR decline era is still favoured by the majority to enthusiasts especially those of a certain age.

Tim
P.S. Technically its historically accurate for locos to carry the livery of their owning company so any loco in LMS,BR,GWR etc colours is wrong (unless GWR stands for Gloucestershire and Warwickshire Railway).

 

I think coaching stock plays quite a big subconcious part in the thought making process on that, and therein lies the problem in that very few lines have anything other Mk1's in regular traffic, hence why some would like to see say a Black Dukedog on 4 Blood n Custards, yet at the same time i doubt they'd turn down an Apple Green V2 on Gresley Teaks ot City of Truro on GWR Clarestories.

 

I think you may heave dreamt that one. I've got pics of working preserved locos in BR livery from that era, the earliest being 45110 on the SVR in 1971.

 

Im sure i've heard/read about a Ban on the BR logo being displayed early on, but can only assume it wasn't really enforced if it ever did exist, 32473 ran in Black with the BR Crest painted out for a while at the Bluebell.

 

In response to david1984's post above, the problem is, it is easier to turn out an engine in pre-1948 livery, or even early BR livery for that matter, and then the difficult bit is to find a set of coaches that match that engine/livery, assuming that from a historical point of view thats what you want.
No pre-Nat. rakes on the main line, so you have an LMS rake on the SVR, GWR rakes at the SVR, Didcot, and a few other places, and LNER rakes on the NYMR and SVR plus part sets at other lines. Southern on the Bluebell and ?.
Otherwise your engine in pre-1948 livery runs with BR Mk1's, but that in itself isn't a justification for sticking to BR livery all the time.

46100 however does nothing for railway history in its current paint job, because of the reasons we all know about, and dont need to rehash here.

 

sidmouth you have had your say is there any chance that other people may have there say.

 

I wonder if it's even possible to preserve a rusting hulk? I suppose, at some point you have to restore what you have, otherwise it will rust away to nothing. I don't know if there's a way to stop the rusting process part way in a controlled manner. I don't see how you could if there's water / oxygen about. If you have to restore it anyway, then whether you add the remaining bits to make it work is another matter. As I've said before, there has to be a balance between modification, restoration, and preserving in a static condition. As in your example, static may well be the best option. If we restore everything to running order, then we may end up with no examples of true original engineering.

As for the livery debate that can run and run, they'll be those who say why bother restoring an engine if you then don't put it in authentic colours, and there are those who are just happy to see the locos running. Despite my comments defending a maroon 6100, my preference is for authentic liveries, but it's really up to the owning groups and I'll accept that and look for the positive.