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double track at other heritage railways

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by TonyMay, Mar 18, 2010.

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would you like to see double track at other preserved railways?

  1. Yes!

    153 vote(s)
    65.1%
  2. No

    33 vote(s)
    14.0%
  3. Don't know

    8 vote(s)
    3.4%
  4. Don't care

    41 vote(s)
    17.4%
  1. TonyMay

    TonyMay Member

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    Obviously the Great Central Railway is the only preserved line in the country with double track but it isn't the only former double track line that has been preserved. Given that it allows the GCR to run an intensive service, with three non-passenger carrying trains running on a gala weekend, and all day and not just in the mornings/evenings or on the Friday, plus generally avoiding problems that other lines have with late running trains making all the other trains late, plus running driver experience trips on weekends while other lines tend to do it during the week, (deep breath), why hasn't it been done by other lines? I've heard it mentioned as being the ambition of the GWR and the ELR, possibly others. What lines were formerly double track? Discuss whether there is a business case.
     
  2. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Well a case could be the NYMR - that was formerly double track and if even only doubled in part it would go some way to increasing the line capacity, albeit a more expensive option than installing additional passing places. Is there a potential business benifit to it. I guess it would depend on the value gained to overall operations. If the additional flexibility offered provided more earning potential then maybe it would be worth it - it's a hard one to call.
     
  3. Jark91

    Jark91 Member

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    Being double track is the Great Central's USP, given that they can't carry passengers to a tourist destination (like the WSR, Swanage, NYMR etc) and don't run through especially spectacular scenery. If another heritage railway (one of the big few) doubled their track it would be another selling point rather than the main one because they're already so well established and so I don't think it would bring in enough new business to justify doing it.

    And I certainly don't want to see another heritage line doubled. I like going to a preserved railway and enjoying a different atmosphere to that of watching a steam special on the main line. It shouldn't have that 'big railway' feel.
     
  4. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    What about in the case of the GWR? Like the GCR this was a former mainline. All other lines were secondry or branch line routes of course but this was a GW mainline complete with Castles and named trains.
     
  5. pennysteam

    pennysteam Well-Known Member

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    The new bridge30 looks single track to me, there has been talk on and off about putting a passing point around green end area, you could let a down train into the box and then the up train could run past without stopping.
     
  6. Four miles of the Minehead Branch were doubled by the GWR in the 1930s but not used as such by the present WSR. Over time the unused tracks have been recovered for use elsewhere, with the trackbed re-used for other purposes. Whilst there would seem to be no benefit in (re)doubling the three mile Norton-Lydeard section, the shorter Dunster-Minehead stretch might provide operational benefits, even if the doubling ended prior to traversing the (non-GWR) Seaward Way Level Crossing, by allowing up trains to depart Minehead before a late-running down train arrives, thus making better use of the current Minehead-Blue Anchor single line section. That said, it does not figure in current long-term plans. The re-installation of the long ex-GWR crossing loops at Kentsford (between Watchet and Washford) and Leigh (between Stogumber and Crowcombe) would be the priority as they would break the six mile single line sections in each direction from Williton.

    Steve
    (WSW)
     
  7. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    Given that decent track is far from being free, costs a lot of labour to lay & then maintain it seems very unlikely that there is a sound business case for doubling other heritage lines in the way the GCR have done. If there is no business case then it won't happen without windfall funding of some sort - and most railways probably have a long list of much better uses for that.

    Some railways might find it useful on the few peak days there are each year.

    The idea that you can then run a lot of much photographed extra goods trains has to be in the economics of the mad house though!
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. StoneRoad

    StoneRoad Member

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    A very difficult choice for the preservation scene. Perhaps a case for some of the narrow guage lines built on standard gauge formations? as even track relaying is an expensive "game". But as a business case would have to be made first... well, as said in one place I worked at "if you have an idea, however mad or odd, keep quiet about it or some ***** will try and build it!"
     
  9. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    Double-tracking has been discussed at the NYMR and laying the second line has started north from Levisham!

    Seriously, that is only a siding at Levisham but the issue for the NYMR is line capacity - you can't run more frequently than hourly with the present layout without "flighting" trains (as we do Wartime Weekend Saturday each year).

    The limiting factor is the long Levisham to Goathland section, but to split that with a loop near Newtondale Halt would not necessarily work as this would give three sections with journey time of 12 to 15 minutes (Grosmont to Goathland, Goathland to Loop and Loop to Levisham) and you would still be limited by the 20 minutes Levisham to Pickering section, slightly less so if there was a loop between Pickering Station adn New Bridge Level Crossing but that would still be over 15 minutes running time. Add to that the cost of stopping and restarting trains at loops, and the cost and difficulty of signalling a loop in the middle of Newtondale, and other options were examined. Double track from Goathland south to the lines Summit at Ellerbeck would enable passing on the move, and at Pickering, Levisham and Grosmont (but not Goathland, easing the space pressure on the platforms) and give 4 equal sections of about 20 minutes journey time, enabling a 45 minute interval service. Double tracking the whole of the Levisham to Goatland section would give greater flexibility and avoid the need for an end of double track other than at at existing station, saving on Signalling costs (both equipment and personnel). Trackwork is expensive, but double track would be used half the number of times of single track and hence wear (but not weathering) would be reduced. Signal solutions are frequently much more expensive, especially if any degree of automation is involved.

    The real problem for the NYMR is that which Pennysteam has touched on - there would be no real gain from doubling Grosmont to Goathland and 24 years ago there was a bank slip at Beck Hole meaning some pretty major reinforcing would be necessary to use the old Down (outside on the bank side) track bed again, so Bridge 30 is quite adequate as single track. However, between Goathland and Levisham, 3 bridges have single decks - two replacement and one still the original. Three more have been replaced with culverts, two of which would definitely take 2 lines.

    Finally, we have eased the curviature of the line by using both trackbeds and hence double-tracking could involve tightening curves with resultant increased wear and tear.

    In summary, the NYMR could do with having extra capacity, double tracking part or all of Levisham to Goathland is the operational and in some ways technical way to do it but the cost would be way beyond what we could consider or make a definite business case for at the present time.

    Steven
     
  10. steamybrian

    steamybrian New Member

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    The Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch Railway operate approx 8 miles of 15 inch narrow gauge double line between Hythe and New Romney.
    The Spa Valley Railway actually bought a double track line in situ from BR between Tunbridge Wells West and Birchden Jn but due to sale of the land at the original station sites at Tunbridge Wells west and Groombridge had to reduce to single line. Before reopening the line they picked the best bits from both tracks to produce one good single line for reopening and subsequently most of the second track has now been removed.
    The Bluebell line was originally double track between East Grinstead- Kingscote- Horsted Keynes but since closure by BR a single line has been reinstated although of course the section to East Grinstead is still under construction.. The section between Horsted Keynes and Sheffield Park was originally built to a double track formation but only one track was ever laid.
    The Mid Norfolk Railway between Wymondham-Dereham (and beyond) was also originally double track but was singled in BR days.
     
  11. malc

    malc Part of the furniture

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    The double track on the GCR was a bit of a novelty when it first opened, but after seeing a few trains flash past (which is all you see as a passenger), the novelty soon wore off, and when you see a Loughborough-bound train pulling out of Rothley as you arrive, it becomes a bit of a pain. Personally, I would have preferred it to have remained single track, but with an extra passing loop at Quorn to give more flexibility but to give more options for changing trains at galas. Actually, what I did enjoy was when they first laid the second track, before it was passed for passenger use, and there would be parallel running between passenger trains and freight trains on the two tracks.
     
  12. laplace

    laplace New Member

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    Heaton Park Tramway still use the original double track from Middleton Road to Depot, but at 280 yards it's shorter than some passing loops.

    Do the safety requirements make signalling equipment far more expensive than it looks, or is this because you don't have any more volunteers so would need a paid signalman?
     
  13. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Both.

    It would be pretty safe to say that the majority of signal box turns at the NYMR are covered by paid staff as it is.

    Signalling equipment is also expensive and complex. You'd need to lay a block cable for a start. ££££££££!!
     
  14. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Thank you for taking the time to post this. This was what I was getting at in my post - capacity. You have explained things excellently there regarding the situation at the NYMR and the factors that need to be considered. I guess then the case is that although desirable, double track would be cost prohibitive.
    Finally a question for anyone who might know the answer. Am I right in saying that when the NYMR first took over the line it was double track (or had it already been removed? - In which case disregard the rest of the question!) and BR removed it after the railway purchased a single track throughout. My question is did the railway ever consider saving the secton as double track and as in the case of the GCR it was the cost of buying both that made it unachievable or did the railway only ever intend to purchase a single line route?
     
  15. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    You are correct Pete - between Levisham and Grosmont, the line was double track when the NYMR first had access to it with the second track lifted in the very late 1960s/very start of the 1970s. The NYMR originally was only going to open from Gromsont to Summitt but a combination of membership pressure and County Council finance enabled the whole line to Pickering to be bought, although it was a year or two before trains ran into Pickering Station due to a dispute with the Urban District Council, which wanted the station site for the libruary and a car park.

    I am not 100% sure but cost was almost certainly the reason for the single line purchase. The Trust intended to buy track and land from Grosmont to Summit and land only to Pickering (as the Mid-Hants did with their line at first - and possibly others). The County Council purchased the rails from Summit to Pickering and sold them to the NYMR on effectively Hire Purchase, the last payment being during the 1990s.

    One of the founders, Tom Robertson, did say to me after the 1986 landslip that if we had bought the second track up the bank, we could have kept running, so I don't know if that was considered back at the start.

    As Edward says, we do cover a good proportion of the signalling with Paid Staff, although there are also a good number of volunteers including a few who "holiday" from other lines (especially the SVR). Of course, for any line with mixed staff and volunteers, extra duties have an increased likelihood of needing to be paid as expanding the amount of work to be done does not automatically expand the hours that volunteers are able to commit to do it! Also rememember we run over 250 days a year - we had a "full set" of paid signalmen from the day we opened.

    The Block Cable would be a big issue - although we are about to start trialling a solution to this problem!

    Steven
     
  16. Nick Gough

    Nick Gough Well-Known Member

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    Bet they're glad they didn't get their way now!!
     
  17. Bramblewick

    Bramblewick Member

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    Just to add to Steven's post, the Levisham - New Bridge section was singled during WW1 so that the rails from the Up (I think) formation could be shipped to France as part of the war effort. The second line was never reinstated, and if I remember rightly the ship carrying the rails was lost at sea.
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I think that most railways would like to have double track but it would have to be offered them on a plate. I believe that this is effectively what happened with the GCR through the benevolence of David Clarke.
    A lot of railway enthusiasts don't appreciate the reality involved with even installing passing loops. It is not just the infrastructure that needs to be improved, but, generally, to run more trains requires more locomotives, coaches, crews and maintenance. When you look at the reality, most railways do not run to capacity for most of the year and it is only on a few days that any extra capacity that would come from such schemes would be of benefit. Flexibility of operation is a benefit that may be useful throughout the year but it is even harder to make a business case for this as flexibility in itself does not give any financial return.
    With regard to the NYMR and the early days, I knew the BR Civil Engineer who had the responsibility for lifting the second track and he frequently used to moan about the fledgling society as they didn't simply want one track, they wanted the best bits of the double line so in some parts, the up line was left and in others, it was the down. At each point where the track being left changed sides, he had to arrange for the track to be slewed and re-connected accordingly.
     
  19. Alberta 45562

    Alberta 45562 Part of the furniture

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    IMHO yes,i would like to see it,but only where appropriate/applicable/feasable
     
  20. T.ASHTON

    T.ASHTON New Member

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    I think the Bluebell has so many things in the pipeline after finalising the push to East Grinstead that it would be many light years away of thinking of double track There is the Ardingly section to consider including some sort of bridge to replace the missing viaduct plus more carriage sheds at Horsted Keynes to store more of the coaches awaiting restoration. I think however that when they reach East Grinstead which will have been such a massive achievement anything quite frankly is possible with the determined and hard working volunteers at the helm these days.
    Regards,Tim (A)
     

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