5AT Group Complete Project Feasibilty Study and start fund raising.

:smile:

Like many others, I said much he same about the group who rescued 71000. "Bunch of prats," "should have bought something useful," "thing was ****ing useless anyway. What's the point?"

As my avatar indicates, that seems to have gone well, though. I wish the 5AT mob well. The thought of that creaming along a main line at over the ton is rather appealing... Why will they do it, if they do it? Because they can. I really want to see the P2 as well.

We live in exciting times.

 

Strikes me as a a similar thing to what DLM have done with 52 8055 albeit starting from an existing loco and updating it. Last summer they used it daily between Olten and Sissach to evaluate its performance and economy of running it, haven't seen the results though.
http://www.dlm-ag.ch/index.php

 

A friend of mine loaned me that video. It is spectacular. You see it pulling 4,500 ton coal trains, plus several of its support coaches. And yes, the weather was dreadful.

 

Wouldn't it be just interesting to see how steam motive power could have evolved over that last 60 years. A bit "flat earth" to criticise what 5AT group are trying to do in terms of evolution of steam loco's. With that view we would still be riding behind variants of Rocket! Hmmm "Rocket II" - good name for 5AT!

All we have had in the last 50 years is a refinement of 71000 into what it could have been and Tordnado with modifications to the original drawings.

 

It may be an up to date steam design but it not an up to date design for the current railway sytem. I prefer steam to the modern traction but we have moved on, there is just no point in this project.

David

 

So there is no point for any steam at all then?

 

No, preserved steam is our history, thats why people relate to it, there is something special about steam locomotives but there no way our current system is ever going to revert to steam traction on a whole scale basis.

David

 

But this project is not about reverting to steam traction for day to day use, it is about rail tours and rail cruises. If it was about reintroducing steam as a viable alternative to diseasal and electrics, it would look very different. The whole premise of keeping with the Stephensononian style is to appeal to the rail tour market and what Joe Public thinks an engine should look like. A "modern" alternative to our carefully preserved, yet fragile stock, would be an interesting addition.

 

Precisely, there is just no point - spending so much time and money on something that might well only prove a short-lived novelty among enthusiasts doesnt make sense; you cant rely on every new steam loco having the Tornado effect. What i would support is making some of the 5AT mods to an existing loco like a Bulleid or 5MT if they are neccesary to keep steam on the mainline, but not just to prove a point that is irrelevant in the modern world.

Chris

 

It sounds to me from this and the P2 thread as if the 5AT Group need to change direction and build their loco to the external design of the P2, joining forces with the A1 Trust.

Then everyone will be happy (except for the arguments about the livery) :lol:

 

Many years ago someone asked if I was interested in being involved in carrying out modifications to an existing type -a black five if you must know. I didn't follow up the invitation for a number of reasons but mainly because there are just so many improvements you would want to make that there would be little or nothing left of the original donor locomotive by the time you had finished.

As to the modern world, which one do you mean? We can talk about efficiency, cleanliness, costs, politics, long and short term economics and much more but the factors that drive a decision, in this case a theoretical rail traction type decision, are all too frequently complicated (too complicated for those entrusted in making the decision), driven by vested interest, blighted by personal prejudice and preference further complicated by the decision makers all too frequently ignoring or being ignorant of the facts.

This is not about a first world traction choice, if we want to preserve steam on the mainline in the long term we are going to need better engines, the failure to provide these will see steam slowly and steadily reduced to the York - Scarborough route or similar.

The 5at represents a choice, it is up to the individual to make his or her own. It also represents what the Std 5 could have been pretty well from the outset - if we had had a better design team.

 

I agree but I think that the paying public, and the enthusiast market, are more likely to support a product that at least looks like a locomotive they recognise from history.

That should upset the supporters of the products of Horwich and Crewe!!

 

So we have two more new builds to dilute the funds, I wish there where more pregrouping designs

 

Well at least the 5AT guys know where not to go looking for contributions . I fail to see why this project is causing so much frothing. It is not aimed at linesiders (or at least not those who are only interested in recreating the distant past), or rivet counters and paint fetishists. As I see it its purpose is 3 fold.

Firstly to provide a steam loco capable of living on the modern railway (speed and reliability e.g. oil fired), to pull train loads of punters who want to travel behind steam. Many (an increasing number as age takes it toll) have no idea about the historical provenance of the loco up front.

Secondly the prototype will produce data which will enable a financial case to be made for similar loco's in third world countries where maintaining hi-tech diesels is not always practical or economical

And lastly, there are many people whose love of steam and engineering will not be complete until we've attempted to build the ultimate steam loco. I'm happy to be counted in on both counts. I'm also as keen to build a P2. (Please don't mention this to Mrs S!).

In the end, it's my cash, and the fact that I might choose to spend it on a 5AT and/or a P2 will not deprive another project of funds, as I'm already subscribing to those that interest me (see below).

 

From a marketing perpective this is a dream. Look at what a traditional steam locomotive could have deveoped into. Near traditional steam for the 21st Century - that 5AT retains a stephensonian format makes it look like a futuristic version of what they know from history. Build it and they will come!

 

I've never been a fan of this project for one very pathetic reason, apperance wise it looks like a cross between a streamlined castle and something out of East Germany attatched to an american tender.
It maybe that form follows function, it maybe that we have a Locomotive that will appeal, and work across Europe here - who knows. This worries me for the 5-AT guys because this project succeeding would actually be of great benefit to mainline steam in general. (and those of you who think steam engineering/development stopped when Riddles and co retired - think again) but most either dont like the idea or dont like the look.
How many times have i read( and sometimes written) calls for certain types of loco to be tweaked with exhaust systems, valve gear, porta style combustion etc... well this project is the place for that stuff to be used and proven, its just a pity it doesnt look like a black five, even the Ivatt caprotti five looked better.

Fortunately (for us) the Loco's from the early part of last century conform to a British steam traction stereotype that is being perpetuated by Thomas the Tank engine and the darlings in Applegreen,(any new build project worth its salt should be slipping the Hit entertainment production team a few drawings or their first mock up of their ready to run model with a few bob thrown in. ) and its an image that appeals to the farepaying public.. Sure most of them wouldnt bat an eyelid at Tornado in Crimson lake (Look its Hogwarts castle... !) but the 5 -AT would prompt questions like @is that a real steam engine? is it a foreign one ? Even the P2 team are probably a little worried that its a bit of an Ugly duckling...

Tweak the look fellas... and may the force be with you.

 

Ugly duckiling??? Nah - it's a swan for sure!

 

Well it's time we put all this into perspective. If you are a diesel lover you already have your future with the GM derivatives-it's green ,it's pure, it's ne ne ne ne ne ne ne ne ne etc etc.
Now with steam the 5AT is where it's at. Its design has all the benefits of Mr Wardales vast and unbiased experience.Now if it was going to look like the Leader-the bodywork would be the only similarity with the original design.Apart from being an unmitigated mechanical disaster,after ballasting it was reputed by some to weigh in excess of 130tons!
The 'Leader' look would be radical but maybe 5at would be more acceptably traditional in appearance-which could be what the public want after all.Gricers,if you hate the 5AT now -if we had a fleet of 25 available you'd be waxing lyrical about it in 5 years if not sooner.After all the class 66 is already heritage traction-if you get my drift.
Yes I agree that the design of the 5AT is what we are waiting for-but in some ways it is only as good as the fund raising capability of its moneymen. The A1 project had just the right combination of passion,proffessionalism and dynamism-hopefully it will have rubbed off.