Steam hauled tours and the fire risk.

Many thanks Ralph for doing the work to get this thread going.

Right, fire risk and steam tours.

I'm a 100% steam man. I only want to have a steam loco on the trips I go on, and no box. But I do accept that for operational reasons a box may have to be on the back sometimes, but not working: ie. because of the Victoria Platform 19 "problem", (no calling on signal for the box to collect the ecs after a tour). Or even haul the train over a short(ish) section. ie. for the situation currently with 30777 needing to work both ways to/from Swanage.

Now fire risk.

It is going to happen from time to time.

I would personally like any trains booked for steam when a fire risk situation arises to either be cancelled with a refund made. Or for the train to run with a box, (with or without the steam loco), in the sure knowledge that due to fire risk the box will have to do a significant amount of work, so again with a refund option given to those who want one.

In holding my view I accept there is a cost/loss to the tour promoter. Especially in the situation where a box may only be added behind a steam loco at the last moment. Meaning the potential for a lot of last minute cancellations when the tour promoter is committed to running the train. With the extra cost of a box, and a sudden drop in income through having to pay a lot of refunds.

So I would accept the cancellation refund and the refund for a working box to be involved with the train to be less than the cost I had paid for the tour. Maybe only get 75% back?, (or something of that order). With the option of a credit a bit higher than that for booking another trip with the same promoter after the fire risk season is over.

The above to be spelled out very clearly in the booking conditions.

Doing that shares the loss due to fire risk between the hardened steam enthusiasts who only want a steam hauled trip, and the tour promoters. I feel it fair to do that, in the longer term interest of keeping steam on the main line. We cannot expect the tour promoter to bear all the cost/losses involved because of mother nature.

 

I believe the NYMR has always switched to diesels when the fire risk is rated 'high' due to the Forestry Commission's numerous plantations close to their line. One also has to read the news items of a number of preserved railways to see the effort that has to go into controlling lineside vegetation to try and minimise the fire hazard.

When I started work in 1969 in Borehamwood, at a site adjacent to the Midland mainline, the railway cutting south of the station was showing signs of undergrowth and trees as it had not been cut for about five or six years. By 1976 the growth had been considerable, and in the dry Summer of that year we had two serious bank fires. One was during working hours and our voluntary works fire brigade was able to tackle the blaze - just as well cause the local fire brigade was so busy it was over 15 minutes before they showed up. The second was at a weekend and had to be tackled by four fire appliances. The growth still continued, and by the time we vacated the site in 1994 there were quite mature trees about!
It is interesting that much effort has been put in by NR along the Midland line in the last few years to remove many of these trees and bring vegetation back under control at some considerable cost, mainly I understand to stop 'leaves on the line' - I don't think the fire risk came into it!

 

I must admit that last Saturday I found myself considering my position after a mere 46 years of railtouring

I am an inveterate window hanger and - understanding the needs of the particular excursion - I found a window clear of onboard operations on the return run. The stewards could carry on their duties without me in their way as I was in the front window of an FK so that I was also clear of passengers in their compartments - most of whom had not got the faintest idea what loco was on the front, and, in best bib and tucker, were hardly likely to be increasing their dry cleaning bill with cinders and smuts.

Along comes Mr Officious "I have a namebadge so I'm important" and starts the "this is a first class window so you can't stand here" routine - "back to your seat!"

I don't want a so and so seat - I want a window - especially with the K4 thrashing along at 67mph for the first time in its life!

So - to keep the peace, off I go and find a window in the last first class coach - behind all the passenger occupancy and clear of the meal servers. Along comes steward number two with the same rigmarole - including that I will be in the way of the meal servers - only if they take a special detour will I!

But - logic, commonsense and "the customer is always right" cuts no ice - so off I go to standard class - now six coaches back

This time I am in a side corridor -and in the way - but having been deliberately put there by the stewards when the "excuse me sir" bit starts I merely reminded them that I had been clear of their needs twice, but they had deliberately moved me in - now live with it!

I know I was being awkward - but - when commonsense departs,so does my co-operation! It maybe some time before I book with them again.

 

Martin, may I please take issue with the use of the term "complainers".

We are actually "customers" with a specific desire that, when booking, we had a reasonable expectation of being met.

What I have suggested earlier in this thread, is an outline of how those of us, (perhaps few in number?), could, at a cost to us, be as sure as you can be of anything that our need for a 100% steam hauled train will be dealt with in a fire risk situation.

If the majority are happy with the position where 5029 has to have box behind it, (and of course the box weight means it is going to have to work a lot of the time), then that has to be a good thing for the tour promoters. They won't be overwhelmed with requests for last minute refunds if a "5029" situation develops at short notice. A small number of people, (possibly some of whom are very regular customers), get some sort of refund or credit, and are as happy as they can be in such a situation. The train runs with the dual motive power and the majority who stay on the train are also happy. The tour promoter loses some revenue yes, and at short notice which is not a good thing. So in the medium to longer term they may have to vary their pricing policy for trains running in the fire risk season to keep the status quo so far as overall income is concerned. But those "100%" steam customers who get a partial refund when the train still runs, albeit with dual motive power, will surely buy tickets with confidence for future trips during the fire risk season.

And to some extent we are encouraged to expect a steam only train. Take Steam Dreams. What are we led to expect from their company name? And from the thirty second advert they have/are currently running? How do they normally operate their trains?

I do think that us 100% steam people should not be discarded as "complainers" It is because of people like us taking an interest and a risk in the 1960s that some of the steam locos we enjoy today are still here. OK, my own involvement was only as an initial member of the Bulleid Society and the MNLPS. I soon left behind the working parties at Longmoor for motorsport, leaving others with stronger hearts than me staying to see the respective locos get back into service again.

I may have covered issues that are already in place. But this is my first "fire risk" experience since my return to UK steam.

 

Surely this comes down to the efficiency of the spark arresting gear? Otherwise how come Tornado came close to bagging several records last week on the Border Raider, and no reports of any lineside fires to my knowledge. I guess there's no 'group standard' for these devices - perhaps there ought to be? The other aspect is loadings - don't over-extend loco's especially in times of high fire risk.

 

I'm sure Nunney could do this on the level once the train is up to speed.
Assisting from stops and taking the strain on banks is one thing but at speed on the level?
Check out my video, three miles out from Cheltenham where there was no scheduled stop, although almost every thing slows down through the station (40mph limit?). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1aQCR7o7gY
I'm not moaning,that's for those who paid the money to travel, but I am very surprised and because of our local gen group I know this was the case from Standish to Eckington.

 

I rest my case, now where's trading standards phone no? I'm a firm believer of getting what I pay for & I'm not just talking about railtours but everything I shell out my money for.

 

If you dont have a first class ticket, you dont go in a first class carriage to stick your head out - that just seems like common sense. As soon as one person is allowed, even if its at the standard-class end of the furthest carriage, then the exception is made and others will try and get away with it as well. While i can understand the desire to see the rules bent, ultimately the stewards have better things to do than deal with the inevitable arguments. Much better to have a simple rule that everyone understands and respects.

Chris

 

The problem on this run IMO was purely the load, 12 is heavy for a Castle at the best of time and a wide open regulator is unavoidable in places, using a more powerfull loco or lowering the trailing weight obviously reduces how hard the loco needs to work and you MAY get away without needing assistance then, for an example, i believe a couple of times in the past the Shakespeare was shortened from load 8 to 6 for exactly this reason.

My point being at this time of year, loading the loco right to their limits is not a bright idea, save the loud hard work for spring & autumn.

 

I'll tell you the number, but only after we have a bit of practice to make sure the conversation goes well:

"Hello, Trading Standards"
"This is Mr Buseng, I have a complaint"
"OK that's what we're here for, please tell me about it"
"Well you see, I wanted to go and watch a steam train at Tilehurst this morning, but I was conned!"
"You mean there wasn't a steam train at Tilehurst this morning? Hold on. Let me look at my database. Are you there Mr Buseng? It seems there was a steam train through Tilehurst this morning. Can you tell me a bit more about why you want to make a complaint?"
"Well, it had a horrible maroon box behind it"
"But isn't that what steam engines usually have behind them Mr Buseng? That's where the passengers sit....."
"No you don't understand, it was a diesel locomotive!"
"My information is quite clear sir, it was a steam locomotive called Nunney Castle".
"Well I want to demand compensation!"
"OK Mr Buseng, let's get a few more facts. What company was it, and how much did you pay?"
"Well, er I didn't actually pay anything, I was just going to stand on the station to watch it go past, but it's all the mental stress you see, it's bad for my health, it's negligent, there must be something you can do......"
"Leave me your phone number Mr Buseng,we'll get back to you."

 

I know it's pretty academic in the grand scheme of things, but the train today behind 5029 was 11 coaches and not the 12 reported. With the weight of a 37/7 in the consist probably makes no difference though!

 

I know that Nat Pres has some influence in high places but until this thread started I didn't realise just how high that influence went.
No sooner did this thread appear it started raining in Birmingham.
So it appears that even HE comes on this forum. :shocked:

 

That's true,Chris125.
No first class ticket,no standing anywhere within these compartments from pasengers with standard tickets.You will find these are the rules on all regions at the present time.No doubt on 'specials' as well.
I think that's a fair regulation.(no pun intended).

 

I've had comments from one of the guys I've known since SR steam timing days who was on the train yesterday. And for the hardened steam enthusiast on the train it was obviously a real problem. On the return he was at the front and about the only reason he had for knowing there was a steam loco on the front, above the noise of the box, was the occasional whistle.

But I don't think SD had any choice. Or rather, the choice could have been to just cancel the train. And there is a groundswell of opinion here that indicates a lot of those on the train could have been relaxed about the dual power used. It is for that reason I made the suggestion of a sort of refund system for the hardened steam enthusiast. Such a system could easily move from a partial, (albeit significant), refund to an additional payment on booking that allows a full refund if the trip ends up with a working box. Just something that allows my lot, (if I can call us that!), to book with confidence, but bail out at the last moment if we are suddenly confronted with the dreaded box! And doesn't leave the tour promoter with a sudden hole in his income that he didn' know was a possibility.

Maybe "my lot" have just got to ride out the dry spell. If it continues, I'll probably got to Victoria for the 9th July train, and make a decision then on what I see and hear spoken at the front of the train before travelling. If I don't travel then I'll just put the loss of my ticket revenue down to experience. 30777 has a few years left on her ticket and I'll just have to wait to time a pure steam journey behind her.

Very strangely, (someone will have to try and explain this, I can't), I'd be a lot more relaxed about photographing the steam/box combination from the lineside. Especially with the steam loco on the front at a time of the year when you wouldn't normally get much clag anyway.

At least I won't be trying to get a late ticket for tomorrows run with 30777, (I would have gone on that with the Arthur now going both ways, as when I checked just over a day ago there were still seats available). So that probably means torrential rain from lunchtime today, and a superb non box assisted run tomorrow for all who are booked on it! LOL!

 

You have my sympathy Frank. On one tour last year I purchased a first class ticket as insurance against "cattle class" being at the back. Sure enough it was so when the steamer came on the front I took up position in the leading vestibule of the leading passenger vehicle. Got my sound gear set up - this caused quite a bit of interest amongst the diners and had a chat about sound recording etc.
Just as we got under way, along comes Herr Flick and says "you can't stand there." So I show him my first class ticket but that's not good enough for Herr Flick. "This is a dining car" he says
"Yes" says I " but it's still first class and I'm neither taking anyone's seat nor am I taking anyone's meal."
"You will annoy the diners."
"Well they seem OK with me where I am. In fact they seem quite interested in my sound gear and what I'm doing. None of them have complained."
"You will cause a draught."
"Not with the vestibule door closed behind me I won't."
"Passengers in this carriage may wish to look out of this window sir." Not while they're tucking into dinner I bet.
"No problem. If anyone asks me to give way while they have a look then I will do so immediately."
"Sorry sir you can't stand here. Now will you walk back through the train."
"You really want me to drag myself and my sound gear through the train whilst they are serving dinner and against the flow of traffic?"
"That's a risk you will have to take sir."
"Not my risk. It won't be my soup that gets spilt if there's a coming together."
"Sorry sir but I must ask you to move now."
"Wouldn't it be better for me to stay here whilst dinner is served and consumed? Less hassle for everyone."
"Sorry sir but you must move back down the train now."
So off I go with Herr Flick in tow until we reach the end vestibule of the Pullman Diner vehicle - five back on not really suitable for recording.
"Here we are sir. You can record from here."
Not that I did but if being in the end vestibule of the leading first class diner would annoy the diners and cause a draught, how come being in the same position in the Pullman Diner wouldn't annoy the diners and cause a draught? I can understand the steward's position if I had been annoying the diners or obstructing the waiters and waitresses but as I was doing neither, I can't see what all the fuss was about. Just to prove my point, I did happen to book dining class on another tour, took up my position in the leading vestibule and set about recording the sound.
Along comes Herr Flick's twin and "Sorry sir, you can't stay here. Please go back to standard class where you belong."
"Don't you think it would be a good idea to check my ticket before making such a statement?" says I triumphantly waving my dining class ticket.
"Oh, sorry sir. Please continue and have a good trip." So it seems it has nothing to do with annoying diners etc. but everything to do with how much you've paid.
No doubt there will be those who thee and me are being unreasonable and selfish but if we are not annoying or inconveniencing others, is it such a crime?

 

Well this has certainly drawn out the opposing views.

A ticket buys a seat on these excursions - and a standing position in a corridor does not take up any seat which has been otherwise reserved.

The "little hitlers" who obviously love their badge status that have posted their responses since my first input have completely missed the point that the SRPS serves meals throughout the train length - and that I had thought this through before choosing my position. It also completely and utterly misses the point that I am "the customer" and can spend my money as I wish. There were only around 200 people on this train - perhaps indicative of the price / itinerary ratio, and its viability was probably knife edge.

If they want to deter repeat custom, these people are going the right way about it.

I had taken up positions where I was out of their way; there was simply no demand for windows from the seated clientele in their smart clothes who's interests are simply not those of the hardened enthusiast. but the stewards determinedly put me in an inconvenient situation - and then complained when I occupied it.

For the money tour promoters are now asking per day I can buy the kind of customer treatment and comforts that these peoplecan never aspire to. Their choice if they consider that their kind of customer management has a future.

 

Seems we have two threads in progress here:

Window hanging and fire risk.

Perhaps a mod should disentagle them?