York Yuletide Express - 12 Dec

Anyone know what time she's leaving York this evening ?? That's if she eventually got there!

 

Just heard from Neil (belle1), train arrived Leeds around 16.45. As far as he knows, it will continue to York.

 

Expected to leave York on the return journey at 18.55hrs. belle1 reports the crew, support and on-train staff are doing a great job in difficult circumstances. Further delay was experienced in the Dewsbury area due to 'trespass problems' but this was NOT connected with their train, rather something they got caught up in.

 

apparently train departed York at 19.30 I hear, minus 44871.

 

Unfortunate but probably the right choice to be fair so everyone gets home at a reasonable hour.

 

Nothing special from today unfortunately. Well done to all those concerned for keeping the tour running and moving...

With it running about 3 and half hours late by the time it got over to us there was really anything decent we could do, I did Manston Crossing as planned and I’m quite impressed by the shot especially with the firebox glow in the smoke etc...
The video will be on the 'Mainline Steam 2010' DVD.

Available Here

 

Well I got back a short while back, photo at York for any doubters...A bit grainy and dodgy as I only took a point and shoot camera, the vid may be better but as it has been a long day that will have to wait till tomorrow


Well done all involved and especially Albert and Chris on the footplate to York, Mr Riley and his crew ( who hopefully willl be back with 44871 asap) and the train staff who had to deal with a very difficult day to say the least.

Thanks again, Neil.

 

Just to add to the above, we got to Lime St after being a bit late on the service train (due to icind on the rails) to hear that the 47 had failed so they were looking at plan B. We were told within 30 mins, shortly after our booked depart time that another box was available. Due to re-positioning the stock arrived a couple of minutes to 1pm and we were off by 1.07. We had a reasonably fast run to Man Vic and then held for a few minutes, then off up the bank and on to Castelton and then Rochdale. We had a proper top up at Brighouse which all went smoothly and then we were held for mile after mile of ambers and then reds up until a few miles outside Leeds. A couple more ambers and then a reasonably fast run into York.

The return run was hauled by a 57 to get the passengers who had service trains to catch, friends to meet and generally get home as the servicing and turning of 44871 wasn't completed in time to enable this schedule.

Neil.

 

First the good. Congratulations to all at RTC, WCRC and Network Rail for all the hard work re-planning and effort to get a train to run. It just goes to show that behind the scenes true professionals are there doing their jobs really well.

Now the bad. Given the circumstances over all, should this tour have run at all? It strikes me that at every decision point after the first, the wrong choice was made. This was a tour, after all, that promised about three hours in York for the Christmas Markets and shopping. Leaving almost three hours late rendered the reason redundant. When it was discovered that the rescue 57 was at Edge Hill and had to go to Crewe to collect it meant at least another 90 minute delay.

In reality, and sadly, this was a PR disaster. A lot of passengers were confused as to why a diesel failure affected their steam tour. Some thought the diesel just dragged the train in and stayed behind. When they found out the truth all that I spoke with were dismayed. A large number of passengers left without travelling as evidenced by many empty seats when underway.

Once underway, the acceleration was phenomenal with the 57 doing most of the work and drowning out the Black 5. Several passengers complained that this was not a steam tour. In fact as the day wore on this became quite a heated debate in our coach. The majority said they felt cheated and would not do a winter tour again.

I feel sorry for RTC on this and await their reponse.

 

So if you were RTC or West Coast and the 47 failed you’d be quite happy to refund all the customers the full price of their train tickets, pay for the loco, the fuel and the paths and everything else even though they weren’t used? Or would you rather give it your all and try and let the passengers have some sort of day out? Do you honestly think that passengers would be happier sitting at Lime Street all day rather than at least having some sort of day out with the steamer?
Then, being 3 hours late I assume you’d let the black 5 struggle up the hill out of Liverpool, Miles Platting and the rest with 12 and a box on? You may have not have noticed over all the noise of the 57 that we gained at least half an hour back by Manchester? Probably something to do with the assistance from it meaning that the train got up to speed quicker so we could cut out the water stop at Eccles.
Also, if we’d left the box behind at Lime Street as you seem to imply that we should have we would have well and truly been up the creek without a paddle at York. In the hour the passengers had to stretch their legs we’d only just got the engine turned, yet alone serviced. I expect customers would have loved another hour or two wait while we serviced her rather than getting home at a decent time. Lucky we had the 57 there!

 

I would have though that a number of options should have been offered, inc a full refund for those whose primary reason for travelling was Christmas shopping in York.

I don't know who the 47 belonged to, but shouldn't they be picking up the tab here? Had I been on-board with the missus I'd have never heard the end of it if the York stay was compromised at all, and as a dedicated steam man, I'd have been very unhappy at the assistance on the way out and the loss of steam on the return. So that probably covers the thoughts of most of those who were on board, and I would be expecting some significant refund.

 

The CONTRACT was to provide a steam hauled tour to York with a specified stop over at York for shopping and the Christmas Markets. The contract was not honoured. Many women were fuming at their poor husbands and partners at the loss of what they saw as an all round deal - steam trip for man, shops for woman. many walked. When it was more than evident that the tour could not deliver on it's contract it should have been cancelled. most companies insure against unexpected loss.

I say again, this was a PR disaster for the rail tour industry with loss of future revenue. As I was taught many years ago when I came into sales and marketing, the best prospect of future business lies with existing customers who will buy repeatedly if they are happy and dealt with professionally. It's when things go wrong that the response is important.

 

Once again you are coming back to the 'Contract'... As has been said before many times, the contract also says that if due to unforseen circumstances changes have to ensure that the tour takes place, then RTC reserve the right to make these changes.
Have you made your complaints known to RTC yet? If so we would love to hear their response.

So the diesel failed at Crewe and the replacement was in the wrong place, so putting yourself in Mr Dobbins shoes what would you have done, and when?

 

Chris, I am assuming you were involved with the engine (apologies if you were driving or firing but you don't say). I was online yesterday as things slowly unfolded and felt for all involved at the early prospect learnt of 2-3 hour delay. Awful. BUT there will never be a winner in the debate as we've seen so many times. Steam tours whether in winter or Summer have their challenges and I think it was actually bold to set out when we could see no one was going to enjoy a walk down the Shambles let alone anything else if you were to return at a 'reasonable' Sunday evening time. i say WELL DONE to all involved and congrats for at least a one way steam run. not ideal but better luck next time. ps the one on the southern with a Black 5 was cancelled minutes before departure, so those passengers didn't even have a choice !! STAY POSITIVE

 

I can't really comment on the days operations, we initially thought we'd missed it and so it was a bit of a surprise when at the far end of the site a black 5 suddenly appeared! However this is the view from the guards end of our replica train at MoSI, Manchester of the York Yuletide passing us around 2 or so. Given the number of cameras there may be pictures the other way as well.

Regards
Duncan

 

I saw 44871 at Crewe on Saturday evening, but assumed it would have left early doors on Sunday. I got word that 47 500 had been failed and so called in at the station to see the Black Five running round the stock to remove the diesel.

Pics in the right order (hopefully):

44871 waiting in P12 Saturday evening:

http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/p68395664.html

44871 approaching P12, coupling to 47 500, and propelling it into the loco siding:

http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/p68402157.html
http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/p68402158.html
http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/p68402155.html

44871 after running back round, coupling to the ECS:

http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/p68402159.html

57 313 arriving into P12:

http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/p68402156.html

44871 at the rear of the consist as it leaves just after 1210:

http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/p68402160.html

--
Tim
http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/
http://zelo-street.blogspot.com/

 

I was actually on this tour and fully aware of the what was going on through various channels. First and foremost, I am absolutely sure that ALL parties involved do symapthise with the passengers who booked and travelled on this tour. In fact, it is obvious there is countless apologies around too. From the outset, every effort was made to operate this railtour has per booked schedule but with the failure of the West Coast Class 47 at Crewe for the ECS move, the schedule was going to be revised but it was a question of how long. I am aware that there was no available loco's in the Crewe area for a number of reasons hence the Class 57 from Edge Hill. No one knew that ultimately it was going to take as long it did but ain't hindsight a wonderful thing! Certainly every effort was made to catch up time, including by passing Eccles for the water stop. However, a couple things down the line conspired against the train including some "NON enthusuiast trespassing" around the Morley area which prevented any train movements!

The RTC Train Manager (along with the stewards) had their work cut out and in the circumstances, done a sterling job as they did attempt to inform passengers of what was going on throught out the day. Ive noted comments about that some passengers lost out on possible sight seeing / shopping time because of the unfortunate delay - mmmm ok but you are really going to do a lot in the space of 2hours 45 mins which is not allowing time to get to where ever the people wish to go & back again to the station. If they really wanted to visit York for shopping or sightseeing then there is more suitable alternatives especially in spending more time in this spendid city. However, I will accept, passengers lost out on a some amount of quality time.

I've noted others have mentioned and not for the first time on this forum about "Diesel" assistance. This particular railtour was booked for 12 coaches (the maximum for Lime St) and unless there was going to be a "Pacific" hauling the train then Diesel assistance would be required out of Lime St. The alternative would be to decreased the amount of coaches accordingly. Because of the nature of the railtour and for operational reasons, it was easier to have the Diesel at the rear end of the train as an insurance policy - just like numerous other railtours. Thankfully, having the Diesel around on this occasion was the right & only decision. If there was no Diesel, than I'm not too sure what time the passengers would of got back to Lime St but safely say around midnight which by then all the relevant connecting trains and buses to take passengers to their homes would of well gone!

At the end of day, it is not a question of blame but more importantly what lessons can be learnt from this railtour and hopefully put to good use. I am sure that the RTC will do everything they able to do to appease their cumstomers and deal with all enquiries / complaints on their individual merits, but give some people credit in attempting to keep the show on the road. Remember, as I've said before "hindsight" is a wonderful thing!

 

8A Rail wrote
"At the end of day, it is not a question of blame but more importantly what lessons can be learnt from this railtour and hopefully put to good use. I am sure that the RTC will do everything they able to do to appease their cumstomers and deal with all enquiries / complaints on their individual merits".[/QUOTE]


Dobbin offer a refund- about as much chance as seeing a flying t-birdfrank!

 

Having travelled on this tour in 2008 & 2009, and had a great day out , I feel very sorry for the passengers and all involved with the tour.
I'm not going to join the debate about whether it should have run et etc; but out of interest, I assume there is a good reason why the locos/stock cannot be stabled overnight at say Edge Hill, if not Lime Street.

 

This tour was originally booked to use Lizzie but problems there meant a change to a Black 5. As I have said before, in these circumstances a diesel is a reasonable option as the loco is not powerful enough for the load. I did ask the question earlier in the thread as to whether the load would be adjusted.

To a reasonable man, the test in law, it would have been sensible to have called at halt when it was realised that we would be almost three hours late setting off.

A retired lawyer sat near me was incandescent. He had his letter of complaint in his head before York and he will persue to Smalls Claims if he is not satisfied.

I don't think a full refund is fair though. Rather all affected should be offered an alternative tour in 2011.