Flying Scotsman

What ever is inside the smokebox is hidden from sight, so it may well be an answer to concider at some stage fitting another blastpipe assembly and having an interchangeable single/ double chimney matched to the blastpipe set up the difference in size could be covered up by the sinle chimney having a flush fitting sleeve that bolts up to the double chimney flange, or if a new smokebox was needed at some stage them some engineering solution could be found where by the drafting is not effected what ever chimney happened to be fitted , Scotsman is no longer an original engine so any future development to allow the safe running on the main line, what ever style she may be in is ok by me

 

Wondering whether in the interests of Brand Protection the A1SLT Might consider Painting 4472/ 60103 into BR Brunswick to run as such as long as Tornado does ?. Will todays younger generation not be looking at Flying Scotsman and saying 'Look its Tornado' (and vice -versa) if this is the case... Very interested in the chimney debate, isnt the Blower ring/exhaust nozzle arrangement different for conventional single and double Kylchap. As for an A1 carrying a Lempor ? surely not, Porta would still have been in shorts....

 

If a Lempor front end were to be fitted it would completely ruin the appearance of the engine. The Lempor chimney would be at least as large as the chimneys fitted to the Bulleids and would be completely un-prototypical. I know that Anthony issued a disclaimer on his view, but he is, for better or worse, the spokesman of the NRM and I feel he ought to know better.

Quite honestly, I'm beginning to despair of the NRM; it ought to be the solid academic bedrock of British railway preservation, but the truth is that it is no such thing. If this locomotive where to be grounded in its historical context then, as an A3 converted to left hand drive in 1954, to a double chimney and German smoke deflectors later than that, then the only livery it can be run in is BR Brunswick Green.

The NRM isn't like a private owner of a locomotive. It's funded by the taxpayer as an academic institution, and it ought to behave as such. The preservation movement has seen enough of fly-by-night owners of this engine. The NRM shouldn't be behaving as it is.

Sorry if this offends.

Regards

 

'Brand Flying Scotsman', to the population at large, is an apple green locomotive numbered 4472. It has been in such a configuration, rightly or wrongly, for the majority of its existence, through most of its LNER days and (apart from a short spell) throughout preservation. This is what the public expect when they 'meet' FS.

This is one that for some, the NRM can never win; if the double chimney/Kylchap makes such a significant difference on performance (such that much more experienced men than I believe) then in today's mainline climate it is advisible to perpetuate these improvements; witness the problems that have been had recently with poor coal. If this disappoints a few enthusiasts, while perpetuating the brand to the general public who pay the bills then IMHO so be it.

Thinking at this one out of leftfield, but it could even be used as an educational tool in itself; showing the development that took place throughout the lifetime of a locomotive, and the modifications needed to operate today. History did not end in 1968.

 

There is a historical precedent for a loco to carry its owner's livery. If the NRM were to follow this precedent, they should paint the loco whatever colour they deem appropriate and paint "National Railway Museum" on the tender. As "Brand Flying Scotsman" is an apple green loco, that would be a sensible choice. They could then bolt-on whatever hardware they feel appropriate to get the best performance out of the loco, and we could then start a new chapter in the history of Flying Scotsman.

After all, that's what British Railways did when they inherited the loco in 1948, and that's what LT did when they bought the GWR 57XX's in the 1960's. Not to mention locos which went into industrial service. As Stewie says, "History did not end in 1968".

The only "correct" livery that 60163 has carried is grey with "www.a1steam.com" on the tender. It has never been owned by British Railways and therefore any BR livery is historically unauthentic. As for the changes made to 71000 which make it a far better loco now than it ever was in BR days....

I'll get my coat.

 

Double chimney and deflectors for me and any colour you like (though I believe apple green is the one most people would expect to see her in).

There are far more worthy causes to throw money at both at the NRM and out in the big wide world of preservation.

 

Three part question:

a) Does the NRM have any desire or intention, either short medium or long term, to at some point retro-fit FS to single chimney form without smoke deflectors?

b) How much would it cost (if placed under contract) to make the required modifications to FS to return it to single chimney set up.

c) If an individual, consortium or fund was able to donate the required funding specifically to make the necessary modifications, would the NRM be inclined to accept it?

 

That kind of approach would have been fine if it was done by Alan Pegler, Bill McAlpine, Pete Waterman or Tony Marchington (or the Plc) when they owned the loco. But the NRM is a museum - their job is to preserve, study and exhibit things from the past and present them them in an appropriate context.

I think Alan Pegler got it right when he first preserved the loco. He supported (in his role as a BR Eastern Region Board member) fitting double chimneys and smoke deflectors to the A3s whilst still in service, to improve their performance. But when he preserved Flying Scotsman his aim was for it to appear as a 'typical LNER A3' therefore he restored the single chimney arrangement and accepted the loss of performance.

 

I bet Anthony is a having a quiet chuckle to himself in all this. Money talks, so I've a vision of two (or more) factions appearing, each trying to raise as much money as possible for their ideal. On the one hand, the single chimney LNER guys and on the other, the double Kylchap/smoke deflector BR green devotees. Who will get the most, I wonder?

I am intrigued at one thing, though. If the NRM is going for a hybrid, LNER painted double kylchap with German blinks, why were they so keen on fitting an authentic A3 boiler, rather than the A4, which was in a wee bit better condition?

 

I'm going to get shot here I know, but.....I am guessing that the decision to return to the A3 boiler had more to do with running 225psi vs 250psi?

Just a guess.

 

Why not have both? They could be alternated at scheduled overhauls and repaints - surely the best compromise.

I agree. They could have kept both boilers, alternating (with the chimneys!) at overhauls to reduce the downtime for their most famous locomotive.

 

I agree with Orion.

the mechanical configuration should match the livery in my opinion.

some people say colour and livery on railway vehicles isnt important, owners paint them whatever they choose, which is fine if someone owns it.

but I think colour in any historical item is important, be it railways or any other item, and its always glossed over that flying scotsman should be apple green.

how about if your favourite football teams shirts where red, but they decided to change them to blue. or change the colours of the national flag, colour is very important part of the ingredient.


Mike

 

I agree with Mike, my suggestion of alternating the chimneys at overhaul would also permit the alternating of liveries.

 

Well, who is going to put the money up to pay for the second smokebox and all the required fittings. Also paying for the careful de-riveting and removal of the double chimney smokebox and paying for riveting the single chimney smokebox in place? Oh, nearly forgot, the new smokebox would also need drilling for the saddle bolts.

 

Well all very interesting, thank you. As for being ashamed, I'm not. There are lots of things going on which I cannot divulge here; don't get me wrong, I'd love to say, but nothing will be done without serious research into the pros and cons of livery, tender, draughting, the lot...

 

And if anyone does despair at the seriousness of what we're doing with the collection, come and have a day with me and see what it is like to deal with 270+ vehicles on a daily basis, but one of which is the A3. Have a go at writing a conservation management plan (TVR 28's is 30 odd pages long) and then despair.

I understand the concerns, I really do, but please don't think we don't care and are merely playing with the collection. We've never been more serious...

I'd better stop now before the calls for my resignation begin, or I get into trouble.

 

Careful Mr C - you need to be my age before you can be controversial - i.e. your future is behind you!