York Yuletide Express - 12 Dec

Steve (from GWR) you are spot on with your comments about Joe Public and a three hour delay on a diesel tour. However it is unlikely that a failure of a 47 on such a tour would lead to a such a delay. Why? Because there is another one behind! Such tours all run top and tail and while this is mainly for operational reasons I doubt if any tour promoter who uses this form of traction would accept a single 47 because of the (high) risk of failure. Two such tours I have been on when a 47 fell over it took around 30 minutes to bring the rear 47 round to the front of the train at busy main line stations.

Sunday's tour was totally dependant on a single 47 to get the ecs to Liverpool. The risk of the 47 falling over with the tour going pear shaped as a result was known to the promoter (because he is an experienced tour promoter) and accepted by him as an acceptable risk to his business. Had two 47s been deployed on this tour the three hour delay would not have happened. The cost of the second 47 (on the ecs from Carnforth to stand and wait at Crewe) would have been far less to the promoter than the costs he now faces through admin charges in dealing with the complaints and loss of goodwill (and therefore future business) before he pays a penny in refunds.

 

Why is the 47 a high risk? The owner maintains them to an equal standard to their steam locos I'm sure and they put put in far more mileage than the steam locos do galavanting all over the country on ECS moves as well as diesel hauled tours besides accompanying steam tours.... a bit of context please!

As for the range of the nearest diesel and which company might have had something nearer.... Again as people keep saying it isn't British Rail, A one has to assume that the owner is prepared to loan the loco and B) you have to assume that the operator has clearance to operate that particular loco under their operators licence...

 

Can someone explain how if there were 2X Boxes on the tour and one failed that the stock could be moved from crewe, shunted and the only working box left be put on the front at Lime St?

The only way I see it is that the 5 could have done the same job (running at 45mph tender first with the stock to Edgehill to meet the 57, shunt and have the 57 on the back.

Am I being a bit numb here? I'm sure the 5 could move load 12 over the route to Edgehill? Why do 2 boxes have an advantage over 1X box and 1 X 5MT apart from the box is passed for line speed? The 5 was the right way round in the first place... It also performed faultlesly (typo?) as usual.


Thing is, this would have been feasible, as was Ralph's suggestion on Sunday morning of moving the passengers to Crewe and boarding there (there was a pendo with about ten pasengers boarding at Lime St just after 11am stopping at Rucorn then Crewe.).... The problem is it that they would still have to get 12 coaches including a 40 odd ton kitchen car over the pennines with a 5 or 47... Unless they took a couple of dead coaches out...

Great having hindsight...


Neil.

 

Yes, I didn't mean to muddy the thread with my post about "if it had been a diesel tour". The point I was trying to make was that dp266 and others make this out to be an issue specifically about steam tours, steam operators, boxes on steam tours etc to support their long-running squabble with the real world. But it's not. It's not about steam at all. The "mostly women" abusing the train staff were doing so because they'd been b**gered about all day, made to hang about in the cold for hours, and were fed up with it, and presumably didn't see the train promoter doing anything except making sure he got to keep all their money. Like on the recent Lincoln farce.

T's and C's are one thing. Treating your customers with contempt will, I hope, get the reward it deserves, eventually.

But it's still got nothing to do whether there was a steam loco on the front, the back, or nowhere to be seen!

 

Steve, I totally agree, I end up doing a few trips a year on my own because the family have experienced a couple of very long days out to put it nicely...

We still do the short repeat tours though.

At least the support crew got back at at a reasonable time on Monday morn.

http://intheworks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1495&start=20


Thanks to Chris for posting from the sharp end.

 

In response to Belle1 Post 103, these were suggestions being bandied around on the platform by a number of passengers who were enthusiasts. The thought being if we could get to Crewe and then a path to Manchester, the replacement box from Carnforth could have met the tour either at Crewe or Manchester. Of course that would have been a challenge to NR to provide all of the necessary paths. Also, RTC would have had a big expense unless Virgin took a supportive view. As many passengers had walked after an hour, dropping the load was a possibility.

In response to Steve from GWR Post 104, there are many on here who share my views on boxes and steam tours, but if you choose to single me out that's fine. I had no issue with Sunday as the train needed heating and, more importantly, was loaded for an 8P with a 5MT as a late replacement. In those circumstances either passengers are off loaded to reduce the size of train - not good for PR - or the box is needed. Where my issue lies is when a train is deliberately loaded beyond the capacity of the "planned" loco for commercial gain. I would like to see more double headers to increase capacity but that relies on avialabilty with a dwindling mainline stock and an increase in price which I and many others would be happy to pay.

 

Seems like a very fair summary of the situation and perhaps the point to draw a line under this debate.

 

Originally Posted by Steve from GWR
"The point I was trying to make was that dp266 and others make this out to be an issue specifically about steam tours, steam operators, boxes on steam tours etc to support their long-running squabble with the real world."

As one of the "others" I don't believe this is a fair summary at all. It is not clear what "issue" is being referred to as there are a few mixed into this thread, and "long running squabble with the real world" is provocatively tendentious.

 

As you say great having hindsight! Just to add your thoughts must also include more time for 44871 to take additional water too either at Edge Hill or somewhere assuming there is a fire hydrant handy (just another operational problem to add to the list) - so add it all up, no time really saved I think. As for the suggestion for passengers to go to Crewe to board the train there and proceed to Manchester - nice idea what happens to those passengers who may board the train at St Helens Junction - more problems to be solved.

At the end of the day, decisions were made with the best of intentions by various parties in an attempt to minimise the impact on the tour and especially the passengers but we are all "human" afterall and nothings ever runs to perfection to all and sundry. As I think already stated, one of the moderators has suggested to draw a line under this now and time to move on - shall we please and no more will be gained in continuing this debate.

 

.... it would seem that the should it/ shouldnt it, diesel, no diesel, whys and why nots could rage on forever ! From my personal perspective a pleasent time was had, 3 hours extra for a warming pint of Spitfire before we set off ! Great weather for steam, the first window and Mr Rileys' magnificent and noisey Black5 providing the sound track to great company, good crack and good beer.

Heres' my video of the what i think were the best bits, the climb out of Lime st, passing MOSI, climbing Miles Platting, startling members of the public on Dewsbury and Leeds and simmering at an ice bound york. The last bit was worth the ticket price alone !

Matt

[youtube]AW-1N-m-JwI[/youtube]

 

Nice one Matt, I seem to have some similar footage from the left droplight... :biggrin1:

My net connection is playing up this evening and I gave up trying to upload after 4 hours and 5 attempts to get it to start. I will have another bash tomorrow morning and leave uploading when I go to work if the connection is any better.

Neil.

 

Every cloud has a silver lining

 

Superb footage Matt.

Thanks for sharing

Duncan