Inability to join societies online?

That is true, but we are new to "on-line" and learning, so forgive us for not being perfect! At least we are trying.

Ian king

 

But the TR shop is run by the TR Company not the TRPS, the member organisation. What you need is for the TRPS to accept credit cards or to make an arrangement with the TR Co.

 

That's because most societies are not big enough to be accepted by their banks to handle direct debits.

 

TRPS do accept credit cards and put it through at Wharf, that's how I pay for Mrs C and the children's membership being a Lifer myself. Had forgotten that - daft especially as membership is due...

 

It is possible for small organisations to receive subscription renewals by standing order but some make if difficult for themselves, usually citing problems when rates are changed. That is easily dealt with. A member is only a member when the appropriate subscription is paid. If it is paid at the wrong rate after notification of a change then the person should be dropped until the subs is paid in full. If this fails to materialise then the money paid at the old rate should be treated as a donation. I don't know the current situation but this certainly used to be the FR Society's policy and was one that I adopted when I was the membership secretary of a smaller organisation a few years ago. Organisations that have stopped accepting standing orders have usually spent too much time chasing people to change their orders without giving them the means to do so. Saying to the membership 'the rates have changed, tell your bank if you pay by standing order' will always have problems overcoming inertia. Those that say 'the rates have changed, complete and give this form to your bank' will find things go much more smoothly. The other 'problem' is identifying payments on the bank statement. I used to asdk for the membership number to be quoted. If it wasn't I would ask the bank for the source and had no problems tracking the payment that way.

 

Annoying but true. You have to be a fairly big organisation to qualify.

 

The FRS online signup/renewal form has a gift aid declaration in the form of a tick box, so I'm assuming they are gift-aidable.

Dan

 

I think it may rather depend on the nature of the member benefits, especially free entry/travel. Essentially, as I understand it, only donations are gift-aidable, not payments for services. There is plenty of guidance material available from HMRC, e.g. here...

In the Talyllyn's case (since that's the line I'm a member of), free travel for members is enshrined in the TRPS constitution. But Gift Aid on memberships is not possible for the TRPS anyway since the society is not a charity. (Talyllyn Holdings Limited is the charitable body in the TR's structure.)

 

Thank you for bringing this up Martin, we at the C15PS currently dont have an online membership joining facility, and I'll bring it up at the next comittee meeting as it sounds silly not to have such a facility!
Jim

 

Looking in the latest "Heritage Railway", most of the articles about fundraising projects finish with a web/email address for people to donate or at least say they are interested. There are still a few which only give a postal address - personally, I am so used to doing things online that I wouldn't know where to find an envelope or a stamp in my house.

Even if a society can't handle the money transfers online, they should at least have a way to get someone's contact details on their website so that they can chase them up later.

Richard

 

I am not 100% sure which side of the line I fall. On the one hand it seems sensible and practical to make joining as easy as possible and to allow immediate on line membership.

Alternatively though membership is presumably aimed at those with an active interest in a particular line and who wish to support it. If because somebody cannot join on line they do not wish to join at all I would question whether membership of an organisation is really for them. Are they joining not to support but to gain the benefits membership offers? For this reason I can see the reason those organisations that offer travel or major concessions do not offer the facility on line as it may discourage those who are only after the immediate membership benefits. e.g. I think in the past it might have been cheaper to become a member of the TR and travel on the FR under the reciprocal agreement than buy a ticket on the FR!

I think overall my view is that I am in favour of being able to download forms on line which can be returned by post, fax or e-mail with a range of payment facilities including by cheque, credit card, paypal etc. Maybe also a gift aid box to tick if applicable. This would make application reasonably easy but might discourage those who are only joining for the immediate potential forms.

As for the TR it would seem that they may be wise to quickly redesign the application form on their website so that payment can be made by credit card as it seems a bit daft that the renewal form appears to enable payment by credit card but the application form does not

 

Lostlogin - there's something a tad illogical when you say that people should be able to post, fax, or email payment, but not pay online! In fact sending credit card details by email is unsafe, and even using the mail or fax is potentially unsafe depending on who has access to the mail and fax machine. So, if you're saying one should be able to use credit cards, then why not be able to join online? Paypal is of course done through safe online or email systems, so anyone using this system is going to make it easy for people to join.
As a US-based supporter I want to support a railway, but cannot (often) use any of the benefits. I have no UK bank account, and mailing is expensive and a chore (fax and phone are also expensive). So, while there may not be many overseas supporters (though more ex-Pats out there than you might think), they are often happy to give lots of cash to a railway. Your approach appears rather british-centric - remember we exiles want to be able to join railways easily!!

Also, if any railways are really discouraging potential members because they think that these folk are just after the travel concessions - that'd be just crazy from a commercial viewpoint! Many of these concessions are pretty limited, but even so, visitors to the line usually pay more than just ticket price. They buy food and have cups of tea and coffee; they buy souvenirs in the shop; they tell their friends; they bring family members. Even if they just come by themselves, ride the train, and buy nothing, you still have the membership fee for the sake of one seat occupied!

So - Narrow Gauge societies, make online joining possible! Paypal is easy and cheaper than credit cards!! Time to join the 21st century, methinks

 

My knowledge of computing is limited but I have always presumed that there would be some cost in setting up a specific portal to accept payments via the internet. I remember talking to a computer guy some time ago and he advised me it was not that straight forward. In addition my view of an internet system to join is that membership would basically be instant and I am aware that some railways that consider membership is for those that want to support or have an interest in a railway rather than a cheap season ticket. Having a small gap between applying and receiving the membership is thought to deter some of those.

I agree that railways should make payment and application for membership straight forward and accomodate those that are overseas or do not have a UK sterling account. Hence being able to pay by credit card over the phone or whatever and returning an application form by e-mail fax etc.

However to expect that an organisation sets up a specific portal to enable it to receive what i expect would be a limited number of applications is a step to far and even of the costs are minimal then I am still sure the organisation could use the funds elsewhere. I also question what real interest somebody really has in supporting an organisation if they consider that mailing "is expensive and a chore" and it would put them off joining. Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh.

 

Frankly, it sounds muddled-headed (no disrespect )!
There's simply no logic in your argument IMHO. You seem to be envisaging people joining online and immediately rushing off to the station to get a free ride. It just wouldn't happen that way! (You're much more likely to get someone actually at a station joining with cash money for that purpose - I saw it myself at several lines recently). Joining online doesn't mean you need to have immediate acceptance - you wouldn't get a membership card (needed to claim these wonderful cheap tickets you seem worried about) for quite some time (via snail mail of course). Not much of an incentive for the freeloaders.
You don't address the security problems of mail, phone or fax that I raised. This is not a trivial concern with professional businesses - more of a worry with volunteer staffed ones when you've little idea who may be accessing this information.
Finally, the issue of expense is I feel a canard. Corris, L&B and other small railways allow purchase from their shops, donations, and memberships via Paypal via a secure server; they are not big railways and can still manage this.

Your 'harsh' comment is indicative of a viewpoint that seems to say railway organizations only want dedicated fans who are prepared to go to some trouble to join and who don't really want to use the benefits. That is the path to decline. Railways should be after anyone who can join - armchair supporters may turn out to be more valuable than active ones - in money terms at least!

This is not intended to be confrontational, by the way!

 

We at the L&B actually set up online membership (and renewals) largely in response to a certain Martin J Ball, who was keen to join from the USA! We did have a few teething troubles, but the system is now working well. We use PayPal, and a number of "membership" products set up in our on-line shop to process applications, and can accept payments from PayPal accounts, or any Credit (or Debit) card.

Whilst many members choose to pay by cheque and post, an increasing number are using the online facility -it is quicker, simpler and safer than relying on the postal system, for one thing! Yes it did take a bit of setting up, and we do have to pay for the PayPal facilities, but equally, we would have to pay for cheques, credit cards etc in any case. Many web hosting sites offer the necessary software free of charge to incorporate on-line shopping facilities into a new or existing website, so it really isn't all that difficult, with a little thought beforehand. Once a membership application is received (in the post or on-line) the membership number and cards still have to be sent out. Looking at it from a slightly different viewpoint - if the facility for instant application is available online, and easy to use, the website will generate at least a few members who wouldn't otherwise consider joining, and even if they do nothing more, and don't renew, you have the benefit of their subs for at least one year!

Another consideration may be that it is younger people who tend to use online payment systems, and I'm sure your railway is the same as ours, in that we want to encourage as many younger members as possible, into a lifelong involvement with the railway.

I would certainly recommend your webmaster/web team look into the possibilities.

 

Your comments are duly noted and I accept I may well be wrong in my thinking. However with regard to the point relating to paying at the station and getting immediate membership which can then be used for immediate free travel my understanding is that this is not available on some/many lines. Yes you can pay and submit your form but the membership pack will come through the post.

I do think that railways should make being able to apply straight forward and easy. I just think that if you can by by cheque, cash or credit card that is moore than sufficient. Yes maybe paypal,internet access etc as well would be nice but in my view if because you can not pay by internet or paypal you do not want to be a member then I do question how much interest somebody really has in being a member. I may be prejudiced on this as i am a member of a couple of railways were membership entitles you to free travel and I see people acquiring membership just for that.

As I said I accept my view may be wrong but in my view if you have the ability to pay be either cheque, transfer, credit card, or cash then I do not see why you would be put off joining just because you can not do so via the internet.

 

While it may be free to send money via Paypal, it certainly isn't free for the society concerned to receive it, Paypal like most other companies are out to make money and they are very successful at doing just that.
Overseas members are generally more expensive for any society as society volunteers will have to send out letters, welcome packs and journals usually at great cost, a cost that is often subsidised by the rest of the membership.

I tend to agree with lostlogin, if you really do want to join a certain society, then you will join it or at least contact them directly via email should you be finding it difficult. Ranting on and targeting certain societies here without even contacting them to discuss what options may be available seems strange to me.

 

In connection with the only railway I discussed (the Talyllyn), I can note that they were contacted by email but have not replied. It would appear the only non-mail options that might have been available was to phone and give card details over the phone (on an international call) to the shop. Even then, it's unknown whether they would be able to transfer the amount to the TRPS as no-one replied...
On overseas members costs, most societies I belong to charge extra for these extra costs; those that don't I pay contributions to for this purpose.

Perhaps before Mr Howarth decided to criticize posters to this thread he should have checked his facts first
This is not intended as a rant, by the way ......

 

You've made three points there, which I will respond to in turn:

1. As I said earlier, all transactions will most likely cost the recipient something, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth a little "speculate to accumulate". Okay, so PayPal may make a little on the transaction , but the railway makes a lot more.

2. If overseas members cost more, then charge them more to compensate for increased postage etc. (or modify the benefits package to suit) Most will understand that. There is no need for them to be subsidised by other members. (it can be said that every member who volunteers to help in any way is actually subsidising all those who just pay their subs and read their magazines, but one gets out in relation to what one puts in, and that is their individual choice) There are also ways of minimising the additional costs - for instance Magazines, newsletters etc. can all be made available on-line, either from a website, or sent by email, at negligible cost. In fact some members may even be willing to pay more to receive upodates by email a few days sooner than if they were printed, packaged and posted to them.

3. Looking at this from an other angle, in these days of financial restraint, it should be beneficial to any railway (or any other enterprise for that matter) to make it as easy as possible for members and potential members to part with their money. I'm not talking here about the hard-bitten supporters of a particular line who will fight through the difficulties to make sure their money reaches their preferred outlet, but those perhaps just starting on the road to NG enlightenment. If people can't join a particular railway in the way they prefer at an early stage in their interest, they may just as likely take their hard-earned to somewhere where it is easier to spend it! We wouldn't want to force them off into standard-gauge territory, would we?

But generally, it really is a matter of "horses for courses" and what may suit one supporter, or one railway, may not be appropriate elsewhere, but the (potential) supporter is the customer, and they have the choice of where they spend their money. Why make it more difficult for them to spend it with YOU?

 

Funnily enough, the Corris set up its Paypal arrangements largely in response to the same person - you don't think he works for Paypal, do you ?

;-)

Richard