Tornado

As someone with an interest in the 'Hengist' 6MT project, I am concerned as to the problems which have afflicted Tornado's boiler as before too long it will be hopefully looking for a boiler. The cost variation between the copper/steel firebox, the use of a rivetted/welded construction, and the ability of contractors in Britain to produce a boiler which will perform as is to be expected are all matters which will be investigated as time progresses. There is no doubt that Tornado's trials are teaching others, she was a trend setter at concept and will remain so during her career, we should, and probably do, recognise that and applaud A1SLT for their lead.

 

Had economic conditions been different at the time im sure a lot of The BR Standards would have had all steel , part welded boilers along the lines of Bulleid ones, but trad boiler making was 'over capacity' and copper had a high residual (ie scrap) value and was seen as recoverable.

One supposes these days that the value added turning witless metal to Millions of pounds loco makes the scrap value nowhere near as significant. Though a copper firebox could be similarly listed as a tangible asset - if such a new build got into serious bother an aggressive creditor might want to rip it out ?...

 

I wouldn't dispute that all welded boilers were commonly used in other parts of the world, but were they trouble-free? Another poster has suggested that a life of 10years might be expected from a steel firebox but the problems with 60163's after only 2 years suggest that by the time 10 years comes around it will be in a parlous state, if indeed it is still servicable. To be fair, I think that the original A1s would have been due for a heavy overhaul after a couple of years, it would be interesting to know what would be expected to be done to their boilers by that time - a repair card for their first maajor overhaul would be very interesting, if not really comparable - I suspect the original engines would have clocked up approaching 100,000 miles by then.

 

A few years ago looking at a PKP locomotive, a requirement for it to return to the mainline, was, if it hadnt steamed since 1992 it must have a new steel firebox fitted.
That said..I understand even now some of the newer returnees in PKP have had new steel fireboxes fitted when reaching their overhauls replacing the previous "new" one.

on the flip side.. PKP's ol49 fleet at Wolsztyn run 5 years daily service with approx 230 miles a day 7 days a week sometimes 3 weeks at a time.. and they keep going.
It's probably not the steel firebox thats the issue.. more the heating / cooling cycles, but no doubting the longevity of it's life is shorter being steel.

 

1 - I disagree with Tornado being the best thing since sliced bread, but that's just me. I think that certain other engines have out-shone Tornado this year by far. (Current issue of SR is my justification for this statement!)
2 - I wish no ill on the loco itself; it is the attitude of several members of the trust I take issue with. Since they are/were fairly prominent members, the organization as a whole has been tarnished with a bad rep in my eyes.
3 – HOW ON EARTH could the accuracy of the cutting of the frames contributed to the problems with the boiler? Now I'm getting defensive as Tyseley made the frames!

Also, it might interest you to know that the frames were not cut using magical lasers! Each side was cut from one length of steel and so did not have a join plate next to the cylinders. This caused some minor modifications to be required to the cylinder castings. Just FYI - when the original frames were made, the lengths of steel required for a non-joined frame were not available, hence the joint.

Now I am absolutely sitting on the edge of my seat to find out how the above bit of info caused a boiler failure......

 

We will be more than happy to build you a nice old fashoned boiler....copper firebox and all!

(There are quite a few places in this country that are more than capable).

Might be a bit more expensive than the steel-only options - the raw price of copper is through the roof!

 

I would summize Ben that the above quote regarding the frames is not a reflection on Tysley, more the actual design behind them. Further - I agree with you, it's very unlikely the frames are to blame for the boiler's failure in any event.

I've no problem with your own opinion on the Trust, but feel your comment RE "was/were prominent members" to be a trifle telling.

I'd like to ask why you feel that a few people speak for the many? There are, at last count, well over 2000 covenators, and of them a large proportion volunteers for the trust, with a sincerely hard working team at the top doing all they can for the engine. If the positions were reversed, what should I conclude on about Tysley?

It goes both ways. In my case, I would not base my opinion on that I read here, more the wonderful experience I had when I visited in 2009, and the kind staff on the site who were very helpful to me.

 

The important thing is that at least the boiler is now being investigated and any defects that might be put down to production , or wrong spec will get found and hopefully Tornado will be back in good health and not have to be repaired so often as has been so far, we can all go on about the copper vs steel firebox question the answer is who knows? she might have not had these problems with a copper box, but for all we know she might have.
Personalities apart when you think what has been achieved by the A1 people, to build a brand new engine,and get it accepted for main line use is nothing short of praiseworthy

 

Put up a posting around 1.00 p.m. but it seems to have been removed.

Just received an e-mail from a German enthusiast friend quoting an Australian involved with their Pacific 3801 (which recently took delivery of a new boiler from Meiningen) on a forum there, and has presumably found its way to a German forum.

The gist is that Tornado's boiler problems are now round the world. Also it seems that Meiningen 'cocked-up' in that the inner firebox is bigger than it should be, thus restricting the water space with. Opinion is that the water and plates get much hotter than they should, which could mean that the stays are bending more than they should.

If someone can tell me how, I'll happily put the whole e-mail up.

 

Ben

Please calm down!

I only said maybe - just posing a question/speculating - I'm no engineer. the fact is that at the moment we are all just speculating as to the probable cause, so until the trust fully enlightens us, thats what we'll all continue to do.

As for Tornado/sliced bread - I said for THE STEAM MOVMENT IN GERENRAL that includes YOU!!!

As for you not liking Tornado - each to their own - I dont particularly care for copper tops, but I still go out & see them on the mainline & I shall be going to the MHR spring gala to see them there.

With your beef about the trust ( I am not a member or have anything to do with them), I think that who ever you are referring to may just have had their 'business head' on instead of the 'steam buff' one & probably rubbed you up the wrong way.

Yes I know Tysley did the frames & you should be proud of that.

 

A friend has just come round and put up the e-mail for me.

Yes, it is very bad news about Tornado’s boiler. About two weeks ago,
we first heard that the boiler might go back to Meiningen. There have
been rumours around the UK heritage scene for a while but now, of
course, it’s official and very, very ugly. A few days ago, I learned
that the problem may be as drastic as incorrect dimensions of the
firebox: that the inner firebox and outer firebox are not far enough
apart. This means that the water space is too small, therefore the
water and both inner and outer fireboxes get too hot and then the
stay-bolts fail. The maintenance time and costs for this new brand-new
boiler are absolutely ridiculous. Nobody can believe how badly DLW has
got it and the news is all over the world now. I fear for the future of
DLW. Maybe DB gets bored with the whole place and shuts is down like it
tried before. Very, very sad. Perhaps it has never moved out of the
DDR-era but I also think that the former East Germany had a better
reputation for industrial quality than this, particularly old technology
production. .....schrieb ein Australier der bei der australischen 3801 mitarbeitet.
Die haben ja auch einen Boiler aus Meiningen. Ich glaube die beten jetzt ,dass dieser Kessel besser gearbeitet ist,als der von der Tornado

Gruß
Eberhard

 

To anyone who cares: we have taken this offline!

(A relief to all I am sure!)

 

I can only concur with the sentiments above!

With regards the firebox, that is a pretty alarming fact if true. I am confident however, that the A1 Trust are savvy enough to be sorting this out as best as can be expected in the current climate.

3801 has a new boiler? I must have missed that entirely - have they found problems, is that why the above has, ah, "revealed" itself?

Forgive my speculation. I am simply curious as to the nature of the beast.

 

Which roughly translated means "...... wrote an Australian who works with 3801.
They have also a boiler from Meiningen. I believe they now pray that this boiler is better constructed than that of the Tornado.

 

if the suppossed incorrect specification does turn out to be fact. then that is very serious and places a very big question mark over the suitability of DLW to undertake any further new boiler builds , i would expect that any new boler for the P2 will be built in this country, but how come such a problem as miss reading the engineering drawings could have occoured? they were i imagine in metric?

 

This all sounds a bit fishy to me. The A1 guys are no fools - I'd expect that the boiler dimensions would have been checked before, during and after construction against the approved drawings for construction, as in any other engineering contract of this magnitude.

 

I can assure you that I am perfectly calm 97% of the time!

I do take interest in your statement about Tornado being the best thing for the steam movement since sliced bread - How is that?

We have been running steam on the mainline in preservation since day 1 - over 40 years! Some of our engines have worked longer in preservation than they did for GWR/BR!

Tornado did become the focus of a lot of peoples attention when it appeared on Top-Gear with the race to Edinburgh, but would you be surprised if Tornado was not the first choice for the show?

I would argue that Hogwarts Castle (aka Olton Hall) has produced a much larger world-wide interest in the British Steam movement than the A1.

etc etc etc.

I will say this again. Building and financing Tornado was a great achievement - but it is just a copy of an existing design - it wasn't really ground-breaking. If the UK's heavy industry was in better shape, building it really wouldn't have been a stretch at all! (But that's for another thread and another day!)

It's Friday. We don't have a tour tomorrow, so I'm off home for a shower after being in Lizzies smoke-box most of the day , then down to the pub for a well earned pint and a bag of cheese and onion crisps!

 

I personally do not believe a word the above re: misread dimensions or confusion when converting metric to imperial. It’s not like we are sending a probe to Mars or building the Chunnel!

I have it on good authority that a more detailed look at the material used in and the way the foundation ring was constructed might reveal some clues.

 

We Saw the boiler leaving the NRM for Germany just after noon today
Hope its back soon

Cheers
JIM

 

Ben

Your entitled to your opinion as I am to mine - lets just agree to differ on this.

Enjoy your pint & have one for me as well!