Heritage Railways and Commuter Services

I have created a new thread for discussing Heritage Railways and their potential role in commuter services.

Everyone is well aware of the potential of one line in particular to this option and it's viability, but have created this topic generically to discuss options, idea's, viability, operators etc etc.

Also is it worth examining historical lines offering commuter services ? (KWVR used to offer commuter services with it's 4 wheeled DMU, and the West Somerset with it's Class 100 DMUs from years ago).

 

To start the ball rolling here's some thoughts...

If a preserved line operator owned the line, would they then set up different companies to manage the track and to operate the commuter services from the heritage services ?

Given the implications for safety and maintenace on a higher speed line with more intensive services, would heritage lines take the risk ?, or outsource it to professional companies ?

Would this result in a situation where Network Rail or a track maintenace companies then charges for the service operators (both heritage & commuter to run on the line ?)

How about the train companies themselves, would a preserved line buy stock and operate a service covering national rail (like NYMR) but on a commuter basis ? or would they allow a national operator to provide the stock and crew on their lines (like Charters today ?) ?

In many cases a commuter operation may actually be a larger business than the entire value of the heritage line ?, would there be place for volunteers ?

What about the stations and the infrastructure ? Is old world infrastructure capable without being damaged or becoming a liability or safety issue, suitable to a daily commute ?

What about the positive spin offs, the extra funding for Heritage services, jobs created, skills training and options to further the heritage cause ?

Are there precedents outside the railway heritage industry that could be considered ? Including old buildings, castles, musuems attached to Hotels and conference centres for modern use ?
How about the old school bus and saving it from the scrap yard by carrying kids ?
Horse and carriages used as tourist attractions.. or the Routermaster heritage service in London ?

Maybe other ideas would be Hybrid trams/trains, or maybe Battery & Electric Hybrids on short branches where wires comes an issue ?

As mentioned before the Harz is a good example, if provides tram services to the town and through the streets of Nordhausen, before joining the line and becoming a through service up their line.

Personally I feel Commuter and Heritage services compliment each other, regardless how implemented at the end of the day it's the same basic premise of railways.. to provide a passenger carrying service, regardless their reason for travel or what vehicles run on the lines... and that should be welcomed not seen as a threat.

 

Probably the best example yet of how to kill a discussion stone dead by pandering to those who can't grow - and go - with a debate

 

I'll try to kick the debate off again, then Frank!

The first issue about commuter services is that most run at a loss. All right, that may not be what the current financial structure of the UK's railways suggest - I know there are commuter franchises that pay premiums to the Govenrment, but this all depends upon the split of funding the infrastructure - the main reason the ECML feanchise is expected to pay a premium and the WCML is subsidised is the Government pays subsidy direct to Network Rail for the ECML.

Hence, any heritage railway looking at committing itself to an all year communter service (and just think for a moment of all that commitment involves) would need to know the cost was being underwritten by some-one. The rail industry will tell you that any new service takes 3 years to reach anything like full potential (even if recent reopenngs in Scotland and Wales haven't!), so there can be enough of a loss to bankrupt an operator while that is happening.

That said, a major reason that communter services loose money is that the assets concerned - infrastructure and rolling stock - are only really needed, certainly in full, in the peak periods. Hence, a heritage operation that generates income in between (as most do) could be seen as reducing the loss. But this is rather approaching it from the other direction and perhaps underlines that, whilst adding a day time heritage operation to a commuter line would reduce the loss, adding a commuter service to an existing heritage operation would increase it!

There are a great many other issues here - would heritage rolling stock be acceptable, either to passengers or regulators? Certainly, I know that exemptions from bans on coaching stock that doesn't comply with the latest Disablility Regulations operating on the National Network would be less likely to be available for commuter use. There is then the matter of the Unions view of volunteers being involved in operating communter services (a TOC train crew being signalled by a volunteer signaller for example). Many heritage lines are not suitable for modern operation, by which I mean several signal boxes need to be open to run a train from end to end whereas the modern system trys to ensure at most one box is open (for exmaple, when the NYMR Saturday evening Pullman runs from Grosmont to Pickering, 3 or 4 signalmen are required, when it runs Grosmont, or Whitby, to Battersby, one is needed at Grosmont to let it in and out and the Network Rail signaller at Nunthorpe). This all impacts on cost.

There are a number of lines which currently provide "tourist transport", where passengers travel not only for the experience but also to reach somewhere. This attracts income to heritage operations whilst not compromising the heritage aspects. Trying to provide a commuter service could be a very different proposition. In some circumstances, it may work (given funding) but in many it won't.

Steven Hogg

 

This is not so new. In 1972 when BR sold the Paignton-Kingswear branch to the DVR, it was sold at a 'favourable' price on the understanding that the DVR would continue a service for locals out of season. I think it happened for one winter, then stopped. We are still waiting.....

 

On a positive note the KWVR are seriously looking at it again...

 

I don't know anything about that, but wasn't there subsequently a serious attempt by BR to buy the line back again ?

David

 

No, BR didn't want the line back as it lost money hence the closure proposal.

John.

 

We hope that in time, provided assistance is received from the local authorities and TFL, we will be able to build a new platform at Epping, so Epping-Ongar Railway will be able to both offer services for local people, as well as bringing in green tourism to the area with steam and diesel hauled trains, connecting with Central Line trains from Central London (which serves Oxford Circus, Liverpool St, Stratford etc). One could foresee that the two could work in harmony (DMU early and late, with a heritage service in the middle of the day).
We already have a suburban door arrangement 117 DMU, 205 205 "Thumper" and 3CIG (though with no plans for electrification it would need to be push-pulled), and the extensive infrastructure works currently being undertaken have all been designed with running to Epping in mind, including additional bay platforms at Ongar and North Weald. For example, North Weald is retaining its King lever, so the box can be "switched out" when not needed. Further details on our website: www.eorailway.co.uk
As with all heritage projects progress (and the re-opening date) depends on how many people are kind enough to come down and help out. If you are in our area, get in touch via our regularly updated website as we have a very friendly and welcoming team doing all manner of tasks.
Simon, EOR

 

In the time that it's going to take to get Worgret Junction re-signalled and the line to Norden upgraded for 25 mph running (or 40?), all the issues that ADB... and Bean-Counter mentioned will have to be addressed and resolved by Dorset CC and the Swanage Railway. At the very very least, they'll have to get several dozen kids from Swanage and all points west to school in Wareham and back, in complete safety, for 40 weeks a year.
So we're about to have an ongoing demo version of how to create a heritage/service train hybrid. Even if it turns out to be "how not to create...." (which I trust won't happen), there'll be lessons for others to learn. I just hope that they decide to keep the public updated on their decisions.

 

The Weardale Railway has been doing this every day (except Christmas Day) since last May, although the service is really a shoppers service rather than a commuter train service. Interestingly these are crewed with a mixture of volunteer and paid staff.

Interface with Network Rail is, however, a cross-platform connection, rather than through running.

However the North Yorks Moors run into Whitby with volunteer crews over Network Rail tracks.

Evan

 

I believe the way the NYMR get away with it is because the Esk Valley is a lightly used, self contained, low speed line, and paths from Grosmont to Whitby and back can be fitted in quite easily. I doubt the same can be said of Worgret Jn to Wareham, despite the vastly shorter distance.