Steam speed records including City of Truro and Mallard

Another point made was that no workings were timed to require such high speeds so if these speeds were achieved, how would the railway have kept a whole host of early arrivals a secret as such speeds were not permitted back then? Also the problem of lots of eye witnesses seeing trains going by at hitherto unseen velocity.

 

Thankfully the very fast running in the USA attracted European timers from the very early days, which got some accuracy in amongst the quaint way the USA arrived at it's speed records! Baron Gerard Vuillet perhaps being the most prolific. His book "Railway Reminiscences of Three Continents" is well worth getting hold of. So some decent timings were made, (as included in that book). And those timings plus some of the schedules that were kept day in day out, (Hiawatha in particular), certainly confirmed that the best of USA steam performance was way ahead of anything in Europe. Although Andre Chapelon in France did wonders with compound locos running at much slower speeds than in the USA, but on equally heavy trains.

But from extensive discussion on line with a USA engineer it is certain that S1 could never have reached 141/2 mph. Maybe 130 mph if it ever had very light train. But no proper records exist.

The one class that I would so love to have a lot more detail, (and there is thankfully quite a lot of decent stuff around), would be for the Milwaukee Road F7 4-6-4s. I just gasp even now reading about some of their properly timed runs. i.e a 48 mile section with a 680 US ton train run at a pass to pass average of 105.4 mph. With one slack, the net average was 107 mph! There is a very, very strong possibilty that one of those locos equalled or even beat the circa 125 mph that both Mallard and German 05 002 reached. On a normal service train. Before the civil engineers asked that drivers keep down to 100mph running because of track wear.

Most of my research, (which incorporates vast amounts done by others), can be seen at:

http://www.germansteam.co.uk/FastestLoco/fastestloco.html

Plus that relating to the first steam loco 100 mph:

http://www.germansteam.co.uk/Tonup/Tonup.html

My years of research into the subject of high speed steam showed the UK has the strongest patriotic denial so far as what happened overseas. As mentioned before on this thread that lead to me having to deal with some unpleasant emails including one real threat of violence.

 

Sadly the "not invented here" attitude is quite common amongst UK enthusiasts and it's not just overseas steam that some people close their minds to. Threats of violence are well out of order but anyone can be brave from behind a keyboard. Doesn't excuse their behaviour though.

 

Very interesting reading, seems the Americans have made no claims to these speeds and literature seems to make the claims fanciful in an interesting chapter of railway history. Patriotic denial unnecessary- no doubt 'Truro' is an absolute flyer, and long live Mallard's record. As we have the diesel record too, lets hope they build HS2 long enough to have a serious crack at the other one...

 

If its on a website, then it must be the truth.....:lalala:

 

Yes - but we should be grateful that people take the time to set up websites such as this.

Personally I don't think there is patriotic denial about foreign speed records (with emphasis on the word 'records' - ie things that have been well recorded) though there is ignorance on foreign scheduled running - such as on the Hiawathas.

 

Back on topic, I didn't get chance to read your article, do you have it electronically so I can read it? COTs dash is always a good read. I recon way more has been written about it than all the other speed records or claims put together!
Jim

 

I suspect that the CoT believers are going to go on believing (I'm one), with the argument that the graphs are convincing and he had no reason to make them up.

The people who prefer not to believe it, for whatever reason, will choose to believe some mathematics about loco power etc. Which might convince you if you could not read equally convincing proofs that it is impossible for a bumblebee to fly:
http://www.dctech.com/physics/features/old/bumble.php
http://www.wolfson.ox.ac.uk/~ben/zetie1.htm
http://asa.chm.colostate.edu/archive/evolution/199701/0127.html

Note: none of these particular links prove bumblebees can't fly, they rather comment on how believing in one metric can give you wrong conclusions - for example, bumblebees can't fly, CoT can't do 102mph.

 

You'd also have to work out exactly what she was towing that day, which I understand is also uncertain.

 

While we're on about it, can we have the Dean Single, to take it forward to Paddington?

There will always be disbelievers: They come in two varieties. The first really don't believe CoT can 'cut the mustard'. The second variety think that CoT might have done it, but deny it anyway, just to get up someones nose!

I don't mind if it did, or didn't. You can't deny its rarity, as an example of the 'crossover' from Dean to Churchward.

Regards,
Ian.

 

:clap2:

 

I don't care if it did or didn't. It is a fine machine which deserved preservation and we should thank the LNER for making that happen:yo:

 

Hear hear!

[heresy] And may I say, I prefer it with the "Great Western" on the tender than the Indian Red frames... [/heresy]

 

Seconded! Now all we need is unlined green and black frames a la late 20s/early 30s, double headed with 6023 (in lined GWR Green) or 4079 (likewise) over the Devon banks.

Hey, I can dream...

 

That is the modern take on, "if it's in print it must be the truth", which is how this nonsense started in the first place! LOL!

 

It is astonishing how passions run on this kind of subject. Absolutely no-one that I know of is unhappy the CoT is preserved, but the evidence does suggest it was preserved because of a misapprehension. We can't criticise the Yanks for inaccurate records if we are not prepared to analyze our own - and if it had been done earlier we might have Papyrus as well as FS and CoT.

 

Pete, the passion runs and runs about CoT because, IMHO, the GWR enthusiasts have tended, over many years, to be about the most passionate about their railways and history. Not that those of us who follow other causes, (OVS Bulleid in my case for instance!), are not passionate. But for reasons I can't fully put into words, the GWR guys and girls just seem to exude more of it.

And you are of course right about not criticising the Yanks. We should have had 2750 Papyrus preserved and running as a great heritage loco. Hopefully not at the expense of losing CoT and Flying Scotsman, although I very strongly suspect Flying Scotsman at least would always have been preserved because of her emotive name. And of course Germany should have kept the original 05 002. Not 05 001 which, (from memory, so I could be wrong), is just the much modified original loco with a streamlined casing added back. Bit like putting an air smoothed casing back on a rebuilt Merchant Navy and calling it an original MN! Such is life.

But I will settle this argument once and for all.

I'm gonna book the first available time machine seat when that device gets built. And no prizes for guessing what date and location I will head for on my first flight. LOL!