Tornado

If they do succeed in building a spare boiler it will be interesting to see what, if any, design changes are made to it! They're spending 50K this time round, add that to what last years work cost, expect to at least repeat it every two ears and perhaps add some work because the boiler as a whole will be gradually aging, and you have likely maintenance costs that approach the original cost of the boiler. It might be cheaper in the long run to get working on the redesign and try to have the spare boiler built ready to swap over the next time major work is needed, test the new design out and eventually rebuild the first boiler to the new spec.

 

Is that regarding my post that mentioned the PRNGT? Ooops! I didn't realise it was a contentious issue, merely pointing out a trust that is undeniably secretive (not a criticism).

 

No it doesn't.

 

I sort of agree however I don't think its how many cycles on base value nor is it how many miles performed on base value I think it is a combination of the two in the short space of time the locomotive has been in service. If the cycles were a little further apart and spread across maybe another year or so the problem may not have been that severe. 3-400 cycles is more than enough to warrant a heavy general overhaul and indeed some work on the boiler. Tornado has obviously suffered a bit more than it should which is the issue but I don't think its as much more as we might think when we take in all the factors. I might read up on the A1s and see about their average maintenance history, it might make Big T's plight make a bit more sense, to me at least

I didnt get the impression they were expecting a repeat performance however. I assumed that they were spending the money for some corrective maintenance as well as repairing the damage already on. I guess that they are doing what they can to make the boiler more durable, what and how we can't know for sure until they tell us which as always will be at the right time.

You're quite right, they are being very professional and very open about what they can be open about. I suppose we just have to wait for the next update

 

After reading your post, I've got to agree with Std Tank. Your comments are contradictory. You said that quilting can only occur with low water yet then said Bulleids suffered from it but resolved by water treatment. Water treatment does not eliminate low water.

 

3-400 cycles is nowhere near enough to warrant a heavy general. as an example, NYMR locos will frequently do 120-150 steamings/year. If I suggested that they had a heavy general (or even an intermediate) repair every 2-3 years, I'd be laughed out of the room! Other railways will expect 10 years at perhaps a lower annual figure. 3-4000 may become an arguable issue but not 1/10 of that figure. You're listening to spin......

If the A1 team are arguing that the repairs are normal for this age and use, that implies a repeat performance in 2-3 years time, doesn't it?

 

Only if we are now assuming that they are not going to even try preventative measures in the future? Which I do not buy, frankly. There's no way any steam engine goes exactly 10 years without some form of repair or overhaul, not in this day and age, whatever railway they work on.

I just wonder if we are trying desperately to compare like for like when such a thing does not exist in this specific case. We have a locomotive built to an older design, using different methods and modern materials, incorporating improvements such as better draughting, streamlining of steam passages and similar, and various other changes which affect the overall performance and physical makeup of the engine. Tornado is a both a prototype, and a continuation of the Class A1.

I am not suggesting that 3-400 cycles is acceptable for a standard A1 boiler. I am saying that without the benefit of hindsight, an hitherto untried boiler design, based on the proven boiler but using different materials, may well react differently to the same pressures the original was comfortable under.

These things happen - they are sent to try us. How we react to adversity, and overcome it, is the measure of us all. I only have to look at what the British Preservation scene has, today, in 2011, to see that at work - "they" said King Edward II would never move again. Who would have predicted we'd have two new build broad gauge steam engines (Firefly & Iron Duke), or that the Bluebell would make it back to East Grinsted?

Preservation is full of hindsight moments - saving one of the last class 22s, or buying up Ben Alder, but people learned from this and now we have a NBR tender in preservation, and the Stirling Single no.1 reunited with an original GNR tender.

As firmly as I believe that we've not seen the end of preservation's pleasant surprises yet, I am certain that the A1 Trust - who took the best part of two decades to patiently build their locomotive from scratch - have the best interests of 60163 very much at heart.

What I am even more certain about, is that owning a brand new mainline locomotive is a learning curve, through and through. There's nothing like Tornado out there - oh, there are other steam locomotives, certainly, with distinct advantage in that they already have the known fixes and lots of knowledgeable people to ask questions on - but a whole new steam engine, designed for 75mph running, day in, day out?

We hadn't seen one of the above in this country since before 1960, surely...?

So, was I expecting Tornado to fail? Of course not. What was I expecting? I was expecting problems as a matter of course, due to the prototypical nature of the engine herself. Teething troubles. You can argue for or against the current boiler issues as teething troubles or not, but the fact remains that it will be fixed in due course, and we don't yet know what the future holds for 60163.

She's a whole different animal, and as such every lesson learned here will help both the A1 Trust for Tornado's future on the mainline, and any future new builds planned by themselves, or any other group for that matter.

And as before, I can only add...



...calmly await events!

 

Reading the only 'official' information regarding the defects on the A1 lots website, it isn't much of an assumption is it?.

Nobody 'buys it'!.

But given the facts as presented the only conclusion is that the boiler will need £50k of work every 2 years.

Your argument is surely based on rumour?, indeed I would suggest they amount to substantial allegations that there are in fact serious problems.

Yep, was that turd from Minsterley. He was cured.

 

It seems to me that this debate is just going round and round in circles, and is rapidly becoming nothing more than a 'my dad is bigger than your dad' style argument.

SACM you're just encouraging this, rather than following your own advice above.

I'm quite happy to wait until the Trust furnish us with the full story, which no doubt they will, once the time is right for them to do so.

Iain

 

Funnily enough I said much the same a while ago!

 

Indeed......as I have said wait until details come from the trust

 

Of course the discussions start when the details officially provided by the Trust just don't seem to add up... :whistle:

 

I don't think I am encouraging it - but I'll draw my neck in happily to avoid further argument.

I will add one last thing - there's interesting trains of thought going on in this thread, all clearly coming from different positions. That's not a bad thing, we get all sides of the debate.

 

UK Steam is now showing Tornado's is no longer doing a number of tours in May. The first date it is currently listed for is the 24th May.

 

http://steamtube.ning.com/video/video/show?id=2735651:Video:67678&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_video

Interesting video showing the construction of German welded boilers, including the welded stays, foundation ring and a welded cross-brace that a bit warped!

No opinion offered - Just an FYI!

 

Fantastic video, great presenter, probably the best video I've seen on here, I'll certainly be looking at his other offerings too. Wouldn't it be good if our UK repair shops could produce similar informative and instructional videos, though I'm not sure where the money would come from, or whether they could match his presentational skills - Mr Waterman maybe?

 

Great link Ben, extremely informative.

 

Excellent video, well done ben!!!

 

It's a very good video and shows a US perspective on boiler design and how it differs from UK and Europe. If you start to follow the various links available, you can see that there is a world-wide interest in Tornado's boiler and the possible causes. Nat Pres isn't the only place where it is being discussed.