W&L Beyer peacock locos

For a time now i have admired these venerable locomotives and have been wondering what the differences are between the two i know they where reboilerd By oswestry works and one has a somewhat large whistle deflector plate but what else is there that is different?
also does anyone know of any drawings for the replacement boilers as oposed the Beyer peacock drawings that are available on the internet and in the wild swan press book?

Many thanks
Jordan Leeds

 

The main visual differences between the two: -

- 822 has a welded bunker, 823 is rivetted (the easy way to tell the two apart from the rear).
- 823 has a large rivetted patch on the frames (drivers side) above the ashpan. The repair was required as she cracked her frames when coliding with a tractor during WW2.
- 822 was the only loco to recieve BR black, and that was only carried for her last six months of service in 1956 (up untill then both locos had continued to carry middle-crome Green during the 50s).
- Maybe Richieboy can confirm, but I understand the firebox crown on 822 current boiler is slightly higher than 823 also the fireman's side injectors are different sizes?

There was only one whistle defelector plate and it was transfered between the two locomotives depending which loco was rostered, but disappeared during storage at Oswestry Works 1956-1962. Not all the W&L crews liked the deflector and sometimes it was left behind.

In W&L folklore 822 has also always been regarded as the better steamer than 823, despite both locos having had replacement boilers in 1929 and 1999/2000.

Kind regards,
Gareth

 

What's the state with both them regarding being in ticket? It's been years since I was last at the WLLR - what have they got working for this season?

 

Gareth Houghton reminds me that there has always been dispute as to whether The Earl or Countess is the better machine. There is an account on RMWeb by a Mid-Hants driver who experienced them both on a visit last summer and he quite emphatically prefers Countess"!

My difficulty is that, although I do have narrow gauge steam experience it is not on the W&L. From my days as a guard there, I remember most crews preferring The Earl but a respectable minority held that if one treated the lady with respect she was the better performer of the pair.

Countess is presently undergoing a ten year overhaul. The Earl had his a couple of years ago. Joan is being put together after a major rebuild including new boiler.

 

I can shed a little light on a few things,

As for firebox crown heights, they are both actually the same since the new Newton boilers were fitted. 822 had a new height in error during the construction of the boiler and because of the criticality of water levels on our line, 823's was done in the same way to make life simpler for the crews.

Both loco's now run at 160psi instead of 150 as the Swindon boilers did.

As for other things, the regulator extensions - fitted in early preservation - are at different heights, 822's being slightly higher (and for those over about 5' 10" more comfortable!)

822 ran for a time with "bin lid covers" over the end of the cylinders.

823 has forged fire iron hooks on the back of the cab, 822's were replaced with bar at some point under the GWR, I forget when tho.

823 has higher pressure whistles from a different loco (822 has 823's I think!) they are very slightly different in tone.

823's current smokebox door has the holes, filled with bolts, in it for the "89A" shed plate which we have fitted in the past.

823 currently has a 6mm feed on the firemans side (from a dukedog or similar if I recall correctly, but can fully remember!), 822 a 5mm which is not the best to be honest. Both have the GWR 8mm on the Drivers side.

822 was indeed regarded as the better steaming loco, however when rebuilt / redraughted it was found that 822 had a smaller Ø blastpipe compared to 823, presumably from the GWR rebuild in 1929 which would explain that to some extent.

They are both now fitted with Lempor nozzles, although 822's are actually slightly smaller than 823's again, hence she still is more sympathetic to the fireman - however she doesnt quite have the same bottom end power as 823.

822 has a hole in the bottom of the smokebox to aid ashing out the front end, 823 is going to have this fitted during the winter. 823 has also just had some boiler repairs and a retube (822 was done last winter)

As for this season both 822 and 823 should be operational, joined by Joan at some point not too far after Easter. #19 is the only slight unknown as it needs some further boiler work, but that is not believed to bo too difficult, so we should be back to 4 loco's if not for Easter then soon after.

I am sure that I have missed a few things mind you!

Rich.

 

Cheers gents I have ordered copies of the Beyer peacock works drawings from MOSI so that I can look into the possibilities. Its just a question of scale now

 

1:1 in original Cambrian / Bayer format would be fun to try! See what they were like before the GWR rebuild!

Good luck with you build, it would be interesting to see the results.

Rich.

 

IIRC there is a 5" gauge model of one of the WLLR engines in original form in the National Slate mining museum engine shed at Llanberis.

I only ever fired COUNTESS, so can not comment on the differences with THE EARL. I preferred COUNTESS to 85 and 699.01!

 

Very interesting post - thanks.

What's the state with No.14 and Sir Drefaldwyn?

 

No problems.

This is slightly easier to answer!

No14/85 is heading north at some point soon for display (I don't believe it has gone yet)
http://www.wllr.org.uk/news.htm#Llanfair loco favourite heads north for display

As for No10/699.01/Sir Drefaldwyn - She is "in the que" for a rebuild when, however, is unknown.

Rich.

 

Funny enough I understand 9017 is fitted with a hydrostatic lubricator that was once carried by 823 in the past.
Gareth

 

Is anyone aware of drawings for the Beyer peacock locos After there Re boilering in the recent wild swan Welshpool Llanfair Book there is a diagram but i am wonderng if drawings for the new boilers exist and where i may find them?

 

The current 99/00 boilers that are fitted were copied from the GWR ones if I recall, not sure about the existance of a drawing for them. There are a few minor differences such as the fire hole door ring style and actual height of the firebox crown (only about and inch higher) If I recall correctly then we actually sent the boiler from 822 to Newtons at the time, probably along with the GWR drawing as we wanted the same boiler in effect.

If the drawing in the Wild Swan book is of the GWR boiler, (I am ashamed to say I don't have my copy yet! Gareth will probably know that though) I would suggest basing any model etc on that as it was a better consturcted boiler than those on now anyway.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

R

 

The GWR boiler drawings do still exist and are in the possession of the W&L - I recall a friend mentioning that they have Charles Collett's approval signature on them.

In 2007 a railway consultancy firm generously scanned all the W&LLRs locomotive drawings electronically. I personally don't have access to these files but I would suggest giving the W&L a phonecall or an email explaining what you are interesed in -(details on www.wllr.org.uk) and offer a small donation in return for the file(s) being emailed to you. If you need a closer look the W&L still has the Swindon-built boilers in store at Llanfair (it was a condition of the Heritage Lottery Grant was that they can not be scrapped) again inquire with the railway.

The drawing in the Wild Swan book are for the 1902 boilers (a cleaner version was redrawn by Roy C. Link in the 2002 'Rail Romances' book)

Comparing the specifications on pages 213 and 222 of the wild swan booke, The difference was:

GWR boxes had copper fireboxes.
BP = 119 tubes, GWR = 136
BP tube diameter = 1.75 inches, GWR tube dia = 1 5/8 inches
BP tube length = 7ft 6in, GWR tube length 7ft 3.25 inches
BP total heating surface = 433 sq.ft,
(tubes 396.3 sq.ft, firebox 37 sq.foot)
GWR total heating surface 457 sq.ft
(tubes 420.5 sq.ft, firebox 36.5 sq.ft)

The external dimensions (boiler barrel dia, length and firebox grate area dimensions) remained the same. This is logical as the locos retained the same side tanks and the washout plugs on the foundation ring had to still marry up with the frame cut outs etc. The GWR boilers do look shorter but that is because the cab sides were lengthened by 8.25 inches.

Best wishes,
Gareth