Bluebell track laying South from EG?

Hi all,

thank you to jamessquared for the detailed information which answered all my questions.

I believe the situation regarding the Landfill Tax put the Bluebell into a rather unpleasant situation. Without the tax increase the link to East Grinstead could have been a nice and easy "build as you can pay" exercise paid for mainly or even exclusively by donations from those who want to see the extension happen. Unless a massive increase in donations happens, a large part of the excavations will have to be paid for using loans now, if they are available. Those loans will then have to be repaid from income generated by the extension. Psychology tells us that is will be difficult to get more donations for finished projects. This turns a "nice to have" into a commercial investment which has to pay its way.

This leads us to the question of extra income generated by the extension. Purely based on the additional length the all line fare could be increased by about £3.00. How much of that is left after operating costs for the new section? £2.00? Then the first 1.000.000 passengers on the new section will do nothing but pay for the loan, and I have left out interest for now! Even if I allow for some extra passengers in the first year(s) of the extension due to its novelty value it will take some time to repay that loan. Not good.

What do we learn from this? Errr, the usual thing: Nothing can substitute some decent donations.

And finally a disclaimer: I have no connections to the Bluebell Railway, I have not even visited it so far! But I am deeply impressed by this ambitious project which must rank among the most difficult extension projects ever, even though it is a definite second at least to the Ffestiniog deviation including a new tunnel!

Kind regards

 

Glad that other posters are sceptical of Mr Philpot's comments. He does favour the "Why oh why......" style of blogging in which some great and obvious truth is apparently totally overlooked by those in power. The quantity and weight of spoil was no doubt calculated and verified by on site surveyors who used a method slightly more accurate than "it looks like soil from up here therefore it must weigh 1.4 tonnes per cu mtr". I would also imagine that abandoned cars and even rubbish trucks in the cutting will be viewed as a bonus since these can be removed and disposed of more locally at somewhat less cost.
But his main "Why oh Why" concerns the apparent failure of the Bluebell Railway management to secure a loan for the extraction. I would guess (and it is just a guess) that this is exactly what the railway will do but in the meantime it is vital that the railway's managers do not create a climate of complacency amongst wellwishers who might cease donating as a result of imagining the problem is already resolved and the battle won. I believe the railway are absolutely right in using appeals and the begging bowl and making no statements at all about loans until the last possible minute (and there may still be time to avoid one altogether)
Mr Philpot's site has been a great asset in helping to raise funds (I joined the Society as a result of his progress reports) but his blogs are of far less value.

 

It was the Bluebell AGM last Saturday. Did anyone go, and were there any updates on progress with the tip (which must have been top of the agenda)?

 

There's a blog from Robert Philpot who attended the AGM on his website - http://www.philpot.me/blog.html

 

So it sounds like there are plans afoot to dig a channel through the middle of the tip, rather than removing all the waste. If this is allowed from an environmental perspective, and the remaining waste can be contained safely, I see no problem. In fact, it brings the successful conclusion of the project within sight.

 

not in the middle (it would be subject to geodynamics problems: instability of the clay and so on..) but on the side
regards
noel

 

Unfortunately the blog is dated 23 June 2011 so it clearly hasn't happened yet!
Am I alone in thinking that non-removal of the rubbish is well, rubbish or is this a serious proposal?
Can we put a super-injunction on the rubbish to embarrass it and make it move?

 

I am sure that the Bluebell Railway are moving & shifting the rubbish in the fastest way they know how...

But "yeah" getting an in-junction might help - But I am not sure where they are progress wise at present???

I am keeping an eye on this extension myself & wish the "Bluebell Railway" all success for the future!

 

After reading that blog from the link below it would appear to a completeoutsider that the project is being run on a wing and a pray! Cutting a cuttingin the cutting, and leaving some rubbish behind ? Fair enough if the powersthat be have Ok'd it in writing but it doesn’t appear to be the case.

Wouldn’t it be better to take a bank loan (if poss.) to remove the wasteasap and open to EG ? Once this is done the railway can increase its revenue torepay the debt ?

I would think it is better to do it this way then the cowboy job that isproposed to save money by the sound of it. Also relying on the membership topick up arms at the 11th hour is very risky, I would assume they are like therest of us skint ! Or have already paid in £100's into the project already.

I really hope the Bluebird complete the project before the land fill taxincreases, but if it is getting close the deadline they must take the bank loanfor the project to succeed. If they don’t and the project stalls, what hopehave they of restarting in 12-18-24 months time ?

Regards

Great Western.

 

Take everything that Robert Philpot says about the Bluebell Railway with a pinch of salt. The board of the Bluebell plc have explained that they will not put the railway at risk of entering administration by taking out an unsustainable level of debt. And neither does the railway need to as was clearly explained at the AGM.

Chris

 

I'd be surprisd if the Bluebell didnt take out a loan of some kind but its a drastic measure and needs to be as small as possible - announce thats the plan, and the money flowing in will be affected. Best to leave it to the last minute, see how the figures stack up, then decide.

Chris

 

I agree with your viewpoint Christopher125. It is also interesting to get views from others who attended the AGM; its not the first time that the phrase "pinch of salt" and "Mr Philpott" have appeared in the same post.
I am not a member of the Bluebell Railway (Unfortunately) and I was not at the AGM so cannot comment further. However, I'm sure the Bluebell directors are doing all they can to rid the cutting of all the **** that is stopping the railway running to EG and donations are the best way of doing that although I admit that time is pressing.

 

If it were possible to reduce the cost by leaving some of the rubbish permanently in place in the cutting, suitably concealed and protected, then this would surely be good news if confirmed to be true. Full consideration of this possibility may not previously have been possible until enough of the tip was exposed to enable accurate assessment of the stability of the remainder.

 

would a part removal of the land fill material still leave a firm bed to lay the track on? or would a single track cutting still have to be back to the orginal track level? because if the infill is settled enough to allow the cutting to be graded wouldnt that be the cheepest option to take out enough infill to allow a shallow incline and decent to either end to join up the 2 track sections , what would be the gradient if this was a viable option?

 

As far as I understand it it is not really viable to leave any waste left in the cutting as by the time it had a clay capping on top etc the ammount left would not be very much. I assume from what I have read the idea is to get a through route as quickly as possible, then continue removing waste. This allows the obvious advantages of being actually connected (maybe steam at East Grinstead on occasions perhaps?), although not enough to complete the job and be fully open. I could not make the AGM where details were given I believe, a report is due in the next Bluebell news in a couple of months.

 

Watching BBC News this morning. There has been another press release on Imberhorne cutting.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-13608094

 

It also made the local TV news - nice to see the project getting some publicity!

[YOUTUBE]bb39ysye7hc[/YOUTUBE]

Tom

 

3 weeks of tip removal are due to begin on the 4th July. Also an interesting article in Steam Railway shows that the line may have a Plan B in the form of a channel with enough space for the lines to be joined and trains to pass through. Any Bluebell members able to confirm the truthfulness of this article.

It does sound like what Alts1985 is on about up thread.

 

If the BB has to resort to plan B and the Environment Agency are already questioning this idea. Why even consider using plan B for? What will happens if the BB isn’t allowed to run public trains through the cutting. Surely the BB management can’t justify all the capital expenditure put in to this project just to run a demonstration train. Would there be a case for not running a demonstration train through the cutting because the same environment Health & Safety reasons still exist for loco crews and the BB have a duty of care for their volunteers/full time staff.

 

Its quite a difficult conundrum. The £2,000,000 is being difficult to find and then in April its going to be £9,000,000 which will be even harder to raise. But if there are any objections from the Environment Agency then its unlikely to work and as you say there could be Health and Safety problems. But its hard to find other ways of getting to East Grinstead.

Also is someone able to clarify that the line may have to retreat back to Horsted Keynes if the project is not completed by a certain time. I've seen it twice but neither went into detail about it.