All aboard the Lynton & Barnstaple

Whilst Andy (TheEngineer) does have particular views regarding the current L&B management and their plans, I was assured recently by one of the EA Directors that any views he expresses are his own, and that "The Directors of EA are always happy to answer questions directly and are currently working hard to improve relations with the L&B Trust."

The same is true of the L&BR Trust / CIC, and I personally have every expectation that all three organisations of which I am a member can and will continue to work together for the greater good of the railway.

Andy has declared his intention not to post on this thread again, and I believe him to be honest in his intentions, so please, can we now return to the subject of my original post...

(you may have noticed the change in my signature to reflect my allegiances, although it was a bit of a squeeze, limited to 500 characters including the code!)

 

I must say as a neutral observer that the last few days postings on both threads have been illuminating in setting out the real practical problems that exist in the way of any further significant reinstatement of the L&B.
I think that has been of value to put that out in the open however irritating for the parties concerned in the short term. I do think a bland give us the money appeal will fail irrespective of the issues that have been raised on this forum.
From my point of view the Woody Bay operation is actually running trains although I do have concerns about its viability( charging £7 for a 2 mile return Trip and allegedly still losing money)
The EA operation is clearly a significant threat given that its is assembling a reasonable length of trackbed, its supporters have track available to put on it and a working steam loco. But to move to actual train operation is a major and very expensive operation and one which would be even less viable than the existing one.
Surely the worst possible outcome would be two separate organisations fighting over a very limited cake.
How to cut the Gordian knot is not easy to see without an influx of new people who are not bound by battles long ago won and lost. But why would anyone want to jump into such a difficult situation.?
I wish the L&B every success but I fear all the personal issues make it an impossible dream which will create a even more heartache in the future.

 

As somebody with no agenda and a totally unbiased perspective on the L&B rebuilding plans I have to say the so-called 'appeal' mentioned and linked to in the first post is almost laughable. Compare it with the phase 5 appeal for the WHR - their website lays out in great detail what money is needed, what projects are being undertaken, what problems the railway needs to overcome and what the final outcome of the appeal will be, if it's successful. The L&B appeal goes into no detail at all. Somebody said earlier in this thread that more detail is 'coming soon' - you don't launch an appeal and ask people to give money but tell them they can have more details soon. Everything needs to be laid out clearly so that people know what it is they're giving towards.

 

Threat my arse. Exmoor Associates has no intention whatsoever of building an alternative railway, it's not in its remit for one thing. This was confirmed by the Managing Director at last weekend's AGM. The company's sole purpose is to procure trackbed of the former railway which closed in 1935.

No agenda and a totally unbiased perspective eh, apart that is from your desire to use the FR/WHR as a comparison to belittle the L&B.

I won't deny that there are one or two valid criticisms in respect of the L&BR Trust's fund-raising activities, which before any L&B member has a go at me for suggesting that, let me tell you that in recent days I've discussed the matter with several Trustees and Directors, most of whom appear to be sympathetic to my criticisms. Having said that, lack of detail of how the money will be spent for is NOT one of them.


Chris

 

To me the All Aboard leaflet says we're going for a TWAO and it'll cost money.
The Appeal is to give money to support the TWAO. What more detail could they give? The amount for stamps and internet connection maybe

 

Interesting that the battleground has moved to this thread. Also interesting is the sheer weight of interest in the mechanics of reopening the L&B, in whatever shape or form.
For those coming more recently into the debate (as opposed to those involved twenty years or more past), yes, it is so true of the the divisions in the WH1964 co, particularly the north/south divide. However, much of the infighting, and indeed the current refocus on potential operations south of Wistlandpound are tending to obscure some key realities that block progress on increasing L&B mileage. As I have said on the EA thread, I hold no brief for either the current L&B board or, indeed the EA one. Both have one or two exceptional or very useful characters, some hard-working but not particularly noteworthy individuals, and both have people who I would most definitely keep away from the fabled whelk stall.
Therein lies the problem. Historically, when the call went out in (I think) September 1979, asking those interested in reopening the L&B to meet at the Castle Hotel, Lynton, I burst out laughing. " They're mad! Absolute loonies!" I said. I had done a rough survey of the route (I had walked it in its entirety in 1972-3) the previous year, and come to the conclusions a) The only viable point of access(for passengers) was Woody Bay, and b) Even if it could be rebuilt, at prohibitive cost, running the entire line would not be economically viable. I have not changed my views since. You are never going to attract people of the right professional calibre, whether in company management, or actual operation, whilst the organisation as a whole retains unrealistic views.

The L&B has always attracted discord, in the early days because more rational people stayed away, more recently due to lack of realistic, progressive management. Much that has been acheived has been down to a tiny core of inspirational leaders, backed up by an equally small group of low profile administrators. Mike Buse, that amazing motivator is now the mainspring of EA; Brom Bromidge, who brought the application of proper procedures and administrative thoroughness, is still part of the L&B board. But Doug Hill, who turned up as a favour for his neighbour, the doughty membership secretary Bill Thrush, has been thrust aside, railway in operation, move over son. The innovative David Hudson who created the modern magazine when we had bugger-all else, Barry Marshall, the supreme Trust secretary and of course the genius of Eric Leslie and the passion of Paul Gower.
The present generation are standing on the shoulders of giants.
We thought we had put thought of operating south of Wistlandpound into the grave back in 2003; I personally saw it as a distraction, in the same way as the FR saw the WHR as an irrelevant distraction back in the 1960's. We needed to concentrate on producing a plan for a practicable, financially profitable railway, and similarly concentrate our meagre assets on acheiving it. Everything else was a pointless dispersion of effort. We needed to separate the must-haves from the merely wants. In this we have failed.

I opposed the acquisition of Chelfham for that same reason. It is interesting to hear now that Bratton Fleming station is not essential. So why was Chelfham, at a time when every penny the organisation could acquire was desperately needed? When the former Blackmoor station was up for sale? And why still spend money on land south of 'The Pound' if you aren't going to run trains for years to come, if ever, when you are crying out for investment at Kiillington Lane? Similarly, if trains are so costly to run from Woody Bay that you have to charge £7 for a total 1.25 mile round trip, why not use diesels? Then you can spend the steam-raising and ash-clearing time to run revenue-earning service. Cut the coat etc.,

What on earth possessed the L&B to re-launch the Lyn programme? A notoriously-poor performer with high axle-loading and reliability problems within months of construction, eventually supplanted by a fourth Manning Wardle. Why start this project when you had the frames of a Manning Wardle under construction and the commonality of Lyd to ease any potential problems??! And construct rebuilds of those over-heavy original carriages when you only have two small steam locomotives and your running costs are too high?? And blithely talk about a Phase Three that would see services extend to Barnstaple from Lynton, when you can't make a decent profit from a three-quarter-mile, one train operation?

Is it any wonder that people go, "..on the one hand, Welsh Highland, proper strategy, attention to detail, professionals in control...and on the other hand....the L&B!" ??

 

I personally think we require one EA thread and one L&B extension thread.

 

Have to say I agree with the moderator, insofar as the main traffic concerns rebuilding the L&B, whatever the organisation. It would appear that their is a basic need for people to express their frustrations regarding lack of progress in rebuilding the railway. Expectations have been raised by talk of Phase Three, and every EA purchase press release leads to expect colonisation of the south 'in the near future'.

Perhaps a ' Rebuilding the L&B' thread? EA and the L&B board could then reissue specific, bland press releases as per their won't, whilst the main traffic thrashes it out the 'Rebuilding' thread?

 

I would prefer that the EA update thread is left separate, a number of readers have expressed their interest in following the progress of EA, which at present is a separate company, if you would be so kind.

I don't think it would be appropriate to merge it, more likely to be the end of it.

Thanks for asking Best Regards TheEngineer

 

Gosh, you're so defensive. I used the WHR comparison because that is how an appeal should be run. I could have used the NYMR bridge 30 appeal to equally demonstrate my point. You're focusing on the wrong part of my post (presumably because you're well aware that the quality of and planning behind this appeal is sub-standard).

 

I actually think this was a useful comparison. The L&B has not in the past been particularly successful in its fundraising appeals, and learning from others is always a good thing - saves reinventing wheels and making the same mistakes. The situation is somewhat different in scale -the L&B is relatively close to the beginning of its renovation, and needs a lot of funding in relation to its current assets and operations, whereas the WHR is in the final stages.

I have little doubt the planning behind the L&B appeal is well founded, although they are still learning, but there could perhaps be more emphasis on the message? All constructive suggestions will be gratefully received, I am sure.

 

Perchance it is awake...

 

On the same theme, found a 13min video on youtube of the above train - Lyd sounds fantastic on the 1 in 40!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_ARjsLRuec

 

I really do wonder why the L&B has attracted so many detractors who at all costs just continue to undermine the efforts to restore the railway.

We have the 'Great Engineer' who after spending a misspelt youth has concentrated ever since on destroying the reputation of the line and we now have 'ellenbee pioneer' who also seems intent to showing that only he knows best.

"A notoriously-poor performer with high axle-loading and reliability problems within months of construction, eventually supplanted by a fourth Manning Wardle."

Lyn actually operated reliably for the most part after some initial teething problems and was certainly not supplanted by Lew.

 

I agree, and what a great video!
I don't know much about the loco / lines, but how do the gradients compare between the WHR and the L&B, and would 5 coaches be a normal load on the L&B? She certainly seemed to cope well here.
I think it's amazing how people set out to build their own steam engine. Some people quickly moan, but we forget what a rare and special event this is. I can think of virtually nowhere outside the UK where this has been achieved. So, well done !

 

The gradient on the WHR is 1 in 40, on the L&B it is less, at 1 in 50. Typically, the original line ran four-coach trains single-headed, although freight-only trains were not generally (if ever) employed, so many regular passenger services would also have included some freight stock. The currently-being restored original coaches, now clad in aluminium rather than steel, will be around a ton lighter than their original 8 tons, and modern coaches will be even lighter, this, plus improved steam technology could well see five- or even six-coach trains eventually running on the L&B behind LYD or another modern M-W. I believe the original LYN did sometimes haul 5 coaches, so the new Baldwin should be more than capable of doing the same when it is completed.

 

Although some of the literature (esp. the 1925 mileage figures quoted in BP&R, which are probably not representative) did suggest that the Baldwin was not so well used, I believe more recent research indicates that it was often used in preference to the Manning Wardles.

 

Andrew's photos and the video Chris linked to both show what could be achieved in Devon, thanks both for posting. The task of rebuilding the L&B may be akin to building a brand new railway through virgin territory, but it is a task that I hope will succeed within the lifetime of many of the members of this forum.

However I have to agree with other comments that the fact the appeal does not have a published target of money to raise is slightly alarming. I know that it can be hard to predict the actual cost of building a railway, but surely the L&B have a rough idea what the TWAO will cost? Personally I would be much more likely to contribute to the appeal if I knew my contribution was x amount of the thousands (millions?) needed to secure this vital piece of paperwork for the railway. I also think a target would inspire more people to contribute money as they help the L&B reach the target, rather than filling a "bottomless pit" of funding for the extension.

 

Yes, it is a shame that there was nothing in the leaflet, but here is the quote from the members' website: "How much will it cost? Well that depends on what issues we have to deal with on the way – it might cost £25k but might cost more if complex issues are encountered that take up more of our solicitors time."

Hope that helps!