All aboard the Lynton & Barnstaple

I am not clear which bit of the railway the TWO will cover? For any major extension £250K would be a more reasonable figure

 

Here we go again. Mr de Frayssinet please go away taking your personal insults with you.

Chris

 

Again, from the members' site: "How much of the L&B will the TWAO cover? Woody Bay to Blackmoor and then probably a top up to get to Wistlandpound."

 

To an outsider, such as myself, personal insults, whether justified or not, are utterly off-putting!

Without support from a Regional Government or, so it would seem, any Mr. Moneybags in the wings, the L&B is going to have a great problem in reconciling its present small scale operation with the organisational effort and enormous capital expenditure required to "break out". Despite extremely high fares, the present operation seems to find it difficult to make enough money to cover running costs. It ain't gonna be easy!

P.H.

 

So I know best do I? Is that sarcastic observation made, perchance, because I dare to say things you do not wish to hear? That Lyn was so successful they never made another ? That the Southern bought another Manning Wardle after they had evaluated their( as successors to the L&SWR) new purchase and found the loco provision wanting?
Why most shots of Lyn latterly are dead, pulled out of the shed for a photograph? Why her mileage was the least of all the locos on average?

Don't tell me 'lynton & barnstaple', you are relatively new member, interested in modelling, who supports the decision to build a copy of Lyn? You may or may not know that Mr Andrew Dow announced a plan to build a new Lyn some fifteen years ago, and the comment from Steve Phillips, who probably knows more about that loco than anyone else living was, " Why build Lyn when you can have a Manning Wardle? It's like having a Mondeo instead of a Rolls-Royce!"

Now prove me wrong.

 

If you recall your post concerning Lyn, you stated that the locomotive was SUPPLANTED by Lew. It is this that I challenged as it is just not true. The word supplanted would suggest that Lyn was removed from service upon delivery of Lew.

I had a relative who was very closely involved with the L&B (driver boyfriend) and attested in no unsure terms that Lyn was his preferred stead and that it was running regularly in the 1930s. It is true that it required slightly different driving skills was probably not as well understood by Pilton. Be that as it may, the same reputation befell old 590 of the WHR. The rebuilt 4-6-0 Baldwin on the Leighton Buzzard line has dispelled much of its bad reputation. A fleet of similar locos are always going to be preferred by maintenance staff rather than an 'odd man out'.

With regard to the original MWs, it would appear that they were not as well constructed as is thought. I understand that several design errors were found in the motion when Lyd was constructed.

"That Lyn was so successful they never made another ?"

The need at the outset of the railway was considered to be 4 locos. Lyn was available due to the Engineers' strike. A further locomotive ordered decades later does not proove one iota that Lyn was unsuccessful. It would be logical to add a similar loco to the majority of the fleet.

The construction of a 'Lyn' replica has been made by a group and not by the L&B Trust. I do not consider that your comments were at all helpfull to the group who are still raising funds and frankly, your statements were based on heresay and not established fact.

 

Baldwin v MW has ben debated before, however it was obvious that the number of USA origin loco's that entered GB was limited, and of those, most did not see 20 years service before being cut,LYN is in that case an exception, to have made 30+ years.

I don't think it was either prefered as a drive or very tractable in bad weather ?? the boiler gave rise for concern early on I believe, USA standards of construction( especially boilers plate thickness and design varied outside of British construction standards and approved methods and layout) loco's were based on "replace" not repair British boiler smiths did not take to the USA designs and there were no spare parts this side of the ocean, this did not help their stay, irrelivant of how servicable they may have been.

Horses for courses I don't think building a replica of either has any value for generating a return in the forseable future to operate on a very short revived L&B.

Engines and everything else needed for the L&B whatever that might be, needs to be built by the L&B team not contracted out to whoever for unspeified sums of money which is not availible.

I joined the L&B to build a full scale railway we started that and it worked, many people were enthused by what they saw, the objective changed I and all those who created these things left.

Now I sit in my chair like so many others and .......... Debate what others are doing !!

 

"I joined the L&B to build a full scale railway the objective changed I left.Now I sit in my chair like so many others and .......... "

Let me complete the sentence for you

............endlessly criticize the efforts of all others.

Are you suggesting that you would have personally designed and built replicas or that the railway should have funded your Gertrude? Many others have put their efforts behind the present management who after all were voted in by the Trust members.

 

The engineers having completed Gertrude sucessfully would have moved on to a second new build Andrew Barclay, then having proved their tallent would have resurected "Project Yeo" and built it, at least be building it.Not because its the right power class fotr the job but because the members wanted it and wanted to see it being built in their workshop.

Yes some have put their support behind the management singing from the hymn sheet, but so far there is little to show for it.

I don't do singing to raise money to pay others to do what we could have done best.

Don't quote the Essex Group carriages as aproduct of the current L&B , that is Charlies pet project not managed or supported by the trust.

 

A bit of background for JDF, where would you stand on this one then John.

If I had not taken the risk on this one the railway would not have opened for the 2008 season, or possibly ever again no one had an alternative plan that could deliver new bogies, in anything like the timescale..

I prepared the contract for K2in Nov 2007 and did the designs, and Les and I delivered the bogies on time 4 months from take up including HMRI / ORR viewing preliminary approval.

The cost to the L&B was £20,000 to deliver 8 bogies by April 2008 starting late Nov 2007 on design work the first plan was rejected, the second viewed in mid Jan was accepted,( a far more complex rebuild ) the price included all the design evaluation and all parts supplied as part of the "New " design and contained a penalty contract of £400 per week for every coach not availible on the due date sometime mid april from memory.Les was worried I just took it in my stride, lets do it boys. ON TIME ON PRICE. You haven't seen any of the current MGT do that one have you.Nothing was said except Andy Richards and Les Driver robbed the railway.!!!! was that because we ran off with the credit !!! ha ha

There is friends in the railway for you !! "We are a business now", yes very nice , sorry I stopped investing, after this one.

Old bogies taken to the workshops, stripped , cleaned modified and rebuilt one at a time and out of that 20K we paid Les's wages for 10 weeks and The apprentice for 6 months. Who robbed who then ?? don't tell me JDF the L&B could have got someonelse to do it cheaper and with more commitment !!!


Gertrude was finished no thanks to your well meaning supporters of the hymn sheet revival group. a superb specimen of what the L&B workshops could do .!!!We would also have gone on to design and construct new L&B stock ( using an enlarged design, 16"/18" wheels with slightly extended wheelbase) of the K2 bogie,( NOW APPROVED FOR LONGER FASTER RUNNING) These coaches are now needed but not availible in the forseable future.( we were being encouraged to do that from external powers, who would have prefered to see the end of the thorpe park designs in this application.)

Your management, you support did not want people in the organisation who were valued, and able to call the shots so they closed it." if you cant beat them close them down" Thinking they would get the kit in the workshops under their wing, oh its easy engineering anyone can do it !!!, you can get a grant for training people.Yea Right !! What take on railway modelers and train them up to work on full size , in the middle of nowhere.

Has anyone got any idea how many suitable applicants are near Woody Bay.??

Now the L&B and all its followers will have to pay the price,that may be more than they can afford.

Its not cheaper to do it outside, that is a myth spouted by those who don't know how to do it and have BA's in Ecconomics.

That is why the L&B is on its knees for money, its spent it all on finishing AXE, repairing SID and a host of paid staff, it has no sustainable following of people who will not only turn up and "do" but will fund their own projects,

Essex being the exception, and that would not be happening if it was not for one tallented Joiner, who is doing most of it. I take my hat off to him.!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

You still have not proved me wrong, and as for the 'driver boyfriend', what is that but hearsay evidence distorted by the passage of years! You clearly cannot refute the points I raised, instead trying to say that the Manning Wardles were not as good as expected. As for Lyn being built by a group, and not the Trust, well, that is just playing with semantics - The trust is quite keen to trumpet Lyn's construction, whether it be in magazines, promotional literature, or even here on the Web. They are equally keen to hide the fact that the frames of Yeo, which they own, are rotting away in a Somerset barn for want of action.

You ask '...why the L&B has attracted so many detractors who at all costs just continue to undermine the efforts to restore the railway". Are they trying to undermine the L&B, 'lynton & barnstaple'? Or are they worried that silly talk of 'Phase Three' and a reopened Lynton-Barnstaple will strip away the more professional who fully realise that this utopian ideal is in itself the biggest undermining of the credibility required to rebuild this railway. Fantasists with unacheivable aims held the L&B back for years; putting them in their boxes was necessary to produce the working railway you see before you today. It now appears they have been encouraged to voice again their baseless fantasies. Why?

Perhaps, 'lynton & barnstaple', you could step out of the shadows for a moment and let the readership know just how much you have done to rebuild the L&B, what you have acheived that gives you the right to criticise 'The Engineer', who actually did do something concrete and necessary to provide the railway you see today.

Or are you just hot air?

 

Reading this thread is actually depressing. And the reason for that is that when an organisation has so many members who are willing to disparage it, and two sides fighting against one another, it's abundantly clear that it's going nowhere fast.

Ellenbee Pioneer your attempts at belittling the project to build a replica Baldwin are absolutely baffling. It's a separate project from the reconstruction of the railway. Of course they're going to promote it - what do they have to lose by doing so? - but it's not being built out of their funds.

 

"Or are you just hot air? "

You have not explained why you decided to state that Lew 'supplanted' Lyn. This is an untruth and extremely devisive.

The concept that only one or two people are 'professionals' while everybody else is just stupid is a jaw dropping concept which demostrates an exceptional amount of arrogance.

I do not care how much the Engineer or yourself did for the railway in the past. Those who have a strong start and a destructive finish are best kept a long way from projects.

There is little reason why eventually, the L&B cannot be restored through most of its length but not within my lifetime. I believe that it will happen.

What do I do for the railway?

I would say that my greatest contribution, like most other members of the Trust is to give my full support to the elected directors of the Trust and its staff rather than run a campaign to undermine everything that is done on the line. Everything else is a plus.

 

I don't like your attitude much either L&B , but I accept you have a voice.

You will need to do more than what is in your last paragraph to see the current L&B grow.


As for myself, arrogant , I was asked this question the other day not to do with railways or any related site, I thought on it for several days, concluding that I did have some tendancy, surrounding knowing which is the best way to do something, If I know I am right yes I suppose that is arrogant, but it is leveled with the ability to listen to people who offer sensible answers, when posed questions
.
There are many people who know much more about technical aspects of many engineering feats, I have stood many times and listened intently to detail about how and why things work or do not work. Absorbed their judgement and debated with them, how best to proceed or where to look for answers.

I don't want to see this project fail, although I see it failing at present, what am I to do ignore all the signs and go on believing with no evidence, sorry that is against all my engineering training .

I have a view just like you John, and I am entiteled to say what I think and why in a polite manner.

If some people want to build a LYN then get on with it,( in fact they dont want to build it they want to pay someonelse to build it. show us some progress, but don't expect the L&B operation to use it just because it has been built the L&B operation needs engines of smaller capacity with ecconomic operating costs, that was why we built Gertrude.

In the short term, there is no comercial use for such a loco as LYN or LYD, it could run anywhere, LYD is not on the L&B route why should LYN go there.Even when the line is built if it ever gets built these historic engines are not what is required to operate a service.

TOO EXPENSIVE to operate( exorbident fuel costs ) and maintain, not crew friendly as well as total loss oiling not enviromentally friendly.

We are now 110 years later, alot has changed and you all need to take that on board.

 

Still weaving your magic!

 

Can I just point out, regarding Lyn, that the issues raised by various people on here will probably be eradicated by the changes in design that the new locomotive will have in it? Can I point out also that Lyn is a somewhat smaller loco than the Manning Wardles, and therefore a more appropriate current heritage project than one of them if it is intended to operate on the current operating L&B? And what does it matter if people with money want someone with skills to do something that they don't know how to do? The mainline would be a poorer place if Jeremy Hosking was currently hunched alone over a lathe in the corner of an engine shed housing 92212, 5029, 34046, 6960, 60019, 35022, 35027, 70000, 6024 and 6100...

Enthusiasts will be very happy to see Lyn rebuilt - everyone here would like to see the L&B rebuilt in one way or another, and you can't have the L&B without Lyn! A couple of replica/rebuild carriages and you have a heritage train that will carry more passengers, be a strong selling point for the railway etc. I think also that it is unfair to claim that Yeo's frames are 'rotting away' in a barn - no, as far as I can see they are just waiting for the appropriate time and funds. They certainly aren't going to rust unduly if under cover!

I am a completely uninvolved party only with an interest in seeing the L&B rejuvenated - however that comes about. As the Lyn project is uninvolved with the L&B trust in terms of management, operations etc. I feel that to criticise it is unfair - once it is completed it would make a wonderful visitor to the Ffestiniog, Leighton Buzzard etc.

I think that most of the comments on this thread would be better dealt with by Private Message. Then you can all rip hell out of each other without the rest of us having to listen. This isn't a 'debate' of enthusiasts anymore - it's a slagging match between, from what I can see, a very few mortal enemies. In a 'debate' people put forward their own arguments carefully and intelligently in an attempt to alter people's views, at least make people aware of alternative thoughts on the subject, etc. It is quite clear that none of your opinions are going to be changed by the other side in this one.

 

"I don't want to see this project fail"

Seems simple to me......... then support the railway rather than tearing it down. I do agree with you concerning the size of Lyn, however, it does have excellent promotional value.

 

What is the point in supporting something that is fundamentally flawed? Where is the mechanism to point out these flaws exist? How are any flaws ever to be corrected if the current regime in charge of the L&B stifles all debate? It will not help things if those on the periphery merely trumpet the received wisdom about the Emperor's Clothes. Quite simply, there is no other forum available to discuss the suitability or otherwise of the L&B's plans. To all those that say, "..stop bickering.." , a slavish adherence to the party line is only going to lead to future blind alleys like the Hole Ground and Blackmoor Gate of the past.

Yes, I may well be arrogant, but does not make me wrong?? Or is it because my arguments make sense that you shy away from them, for fear of facing up to an unwelcome reality? This is my last contribution to these debates, and I am sure many of you will be glad of that, but may I end on a cautionary tale?

" When they held the first meeting to discuss the reopening of the Lynton & Barnstaple, back in September 1979, a box was delivered to the Castle Hotel emblazoned, Unrealistic Expectations - Do Not Open. For a while the box sat there, until some more curious than cautious decided to open the box. Immediately out flew a thousand butterflies, each marked with a slogan like, Four Manning Wardles & A Baldwin, The Full Monty Lynton to Barnstaple, Trains of Heritage Carriages etc., etc..
For fifteen years the L&B chased these butterflies and acheived precisely nothing.

Then one far-seeing individual looked away from these pretty distractions, and with a colleague, bought a redundant amusement park railway, and suggested using it as a fund-raiser, at an appropriate location, for the new L&B. So the LynBarn railway was built, and this change of direction brought in people who began to laboriously collect those pretty butterflies and put them back in their box. Reality crept in.

Ten years later, these realists had created a working railway at Woody Bay, it might not have been over pretty, and it didn't have any butterflies, but it worked. Seeing, this, a group of people who had little or no impact upon this development decided it was time they took over. So they formed a little grouping, had some pleasing things written about themselves in the magazine, and encouraged those on the periphery to vote them in, to replace those that had actually acheived the railway.

It worked, they took control, but in doing so many of those responsible for success departed, taking their skills and their time with them. What on earth were the new leaders to do?.... and then they saw, in a corner of the committee room, a box emblazoned, Unrealistic Expectations - Do Not Open...."

Enjoy your endless back-slapping debates, guys.... I won't be expecting much progress for some years yet!

"May All Your Expectations Be Realistic Ones"​

 

Would it be possible for all the bitching to be confined to a single thread so the rest of us can ignore it? This is just pathetic.

 

It just goes to show how different we all are in our outlook and what we can accept of others and who has a sense of reality and humor.

I thought ellenbees post was rather good , amused me. Of course he was there at that first meeting 1979 and for a long time whilst you all sat and scoffed "Oh it will never be done" its just all talk they don't have the skills or ability to do it .

I am sat here happy, because I was about back then too 1989 in fact, 10 years later. I remember the remarks "Fools" they will never open a piece of the L&B. I laughed under my breath each time I heard it, Oh won't we ?? !!.

I would have thought by now, some of you armchair readers especially you Andrew would have known what to expect when reading anything currently with a title that incudes L&B, just shows you don't learn, just cannot put off opening the latest posting and then perpetuating the responses.

Explains why you all keep supporting the current plan you dont spot sequences. You might see me build a much longer section of the L&B yet, just to prove you all wrong, like I did the first time.