If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

New builds - how many will ever really work?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Maunsell man, Aug 23, 2011.

  1. andysleigh

    andysleigh Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    0
    im all in favour of new builds, as long as they are really worth it though. Somthing interesting, thats not to like anything around already. (anybody want to offer to build a leader please!:p)
    its when you start getting groups for silly things, like a caprotti black 5... black 5's are everywhere already(and are quite boring, *hides*), and it would probably be easier to modify one to caprotti
     
  2. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,610
    Likes Received:
    1,438
    Occupation:
    Print Estimator/ Repository of Useless Informatio.
    Location:
    Bingley W.Yorks.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Herein lies the problem with The Clan (Hengeist ? what next Hengeese ?) which everyone is so keen to right off
    Yes, The project has been going at a snails pace for ages maybe because the design doesnt cause much excitement, not sure its ever been 'pitched' right either, but it exists, which is more than can be said of one or two others. At least the people on it have learned patience and realism.

    The really annoying thing is that had one of these machines survived it would be well travelled and highly utilised and dare i say it ... popular.
     
  3. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,741
    Likes Received:
    2,017
    Location:
    Nantwich, Cheshire
    It would be hugely popular. I for one would put the clan as my no 2 project after patriot. Who knows. Maybe when the patriot is complete I could help. I can't wait to see it one day.
     
  4. Jon Martin

    Jon Martin New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2010
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    1
    One of the things that has encouraged people to make all these new builds is the success of tornado

    Tornado isn't successful because it is an A1, it is because it is the 1st new build steam loco for mainline use since evening star

    so, while the next one or two new builds may get mass media coverage and bring in crowds from the general public, evntally the story will wear thin. Once its been done a few times, who will care (like the moon landings).

    the smaller builds have the advantage of being cheaper to make and run, but obviously won't be seen on the mainline.

    the GWR 4-6-0s, will they get as much coverage since they are being made from exisiting locos?

    The P2 ? Are they still making 2 of them? If so, do we really need 2? I can see the Tornado lot's one being built as they have the processes in place, the fundrasing ability and know how to get the media coverage

    As for the clan? A pacific that isn't for mainline duty? Where is the story in it? Tornado was the ultimate east coast express locomotive, drawn from the history of Gresley, The Flying Scotsman and Mallard. The clan is a britannia that is a bit lighter and not as powerful ... and looks the same as the 2 brits that are already on the mainline
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,868
    Likes Received:
    1,588
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    White Rose County
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think MM and the other early posters make a very good point, and this is coming from someone who thinks new builds are so good that I joined 2 of them - 82045 and 45551! There is no doubt that some of the projects mentioned on this forum will succeed whilst others may not. If it were just simple economics for heritage railway use then 82045 and the smaller Edwardian new builds would win hands down but human nature is such that we can sometimes get what we want if enough of us pay for it. Attention is a big player as we are currently in the dream and nostalgia entertainment business. As time goes on we may need to move into the commuter business, after all, that's what these passenger steam locomotives were built for in the 1st place. Now I'm aware that some were of course built mainly for prestige and to show off the railway company but I can only think of 1 which was and that was GWR 111 The Great Bear. Perhaps some folks with a better knowledge of steam loco history could think of others. Regarding 4-4-0s, the GCR project to build a 4-4-0 using an extant boiler and cylinders has got off to a good start finance and backing-wise.
     
  6. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,610
    Likes Received:
    1,438
    Occupation:
    Print Estimator/ Repository of Useless Informatio.
    Location:
    Bingley W.Yorks.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Right you are john but on your final point consider the following:

    A wc/bb ? its like a merchant navy, but a bit smaller (and theres loads of em)

    A patriot well its Basically a Jubilee with an old fashioned boiler on it

    An A1, Its just an A2, but with bigger wheels.....

    Lets worry about Mainline when its built , perhaps everything else will have wornout by then...
     
  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Further to my earlier post, people also questioned the likelihood of success of a number of railway reopening projects. Think now of where we have trains but used to be just weeds and ballast. Of the new build projects, those that attract sufficient funding will succeed, this that don't will fail but who are we to say which ones they will be?
     
  8. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,741
    Likes Received:
    2,017
    Location:
    Nantwich, Cheshire
    The easiest answer for the question in the thread is - as many as can organise them selves and get enought support to finnish them
    I dont think there is to many or to few. If you find away to get into the mass public then you can easily get money.
     
  9. Richard66

    Richard66 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    I.T.
    Location:
    Sandhurst
    I wouldn't say it's easy to get money these days, compared to a few years ago...
     
  10. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,503
    Likes Received:
    27
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Signalman
    Location:
    Herefordshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Excellent points all. Realism and sound financial organisation are key to a new-build project ever succeeding, and there are some about which don't seem to be so well equipped in these departments - although 'behind the scenes' work can be going on whilst everyone is writing something off, of course. It depends also on the size of the group - take the proposed 4709 - now I have misgivings about the chances of raising the money for a fairly arcane engine, and the usefulness of such a beast is somewhat questionable, but I imagine that it will, eventually, succeed purely because it has the GWS behind it.

    Currently most new-build projects are underway 'because there isn't one surviving' - and enough people would like to see one. Others, similar but distinct, are underway because a large component has emerged. Obviously, as enthusiasts, I am sure that we would all like to see them succeed, and we all have our wishlist set aside for that euromillions win!

    In the future, I imagine that we shall increasingly see new-builds coming along that are chosen more for pragmatic rather than emotive reasons, and they may see significant investment by the more well-established heritage railways as the locomotives in their and affiliated groups' ownership become too expensive to overhaul. Who knows, perhaps in the future a batch of BR 3MTs will be built? Or 2-cyl Stanier 2-6-4Ts? There's nothing to stop someone duplicating an already extant loco. New-builds, it has been pointed out before, are an excellent way to 'take the load off' the movement's prized possessions - the original locos which posterity entrusts to us. Obviously some will keep being overhauled for forever and a day - new frames, new boilers, new wheels - practically new-builds in their own right - but others won't be, on the grounds of cost and perhaps the heritage value of the loco.

    We've already started to see this trend - 82045 fills a gap, and is a 'really useful engine', and whilst not being built with the financial assistance of the SVR has close ties with same. The IoWR has in its strategic plan the possibility of building a Beyer 2-4-0T to take the strain of Calbourne and the Terriers. Again, it fills a gap and for the IoWR's operation be very useful.

    Regarding the current clutch of new-builds -in my opinion most will succeed, a few won't. Some will never get past the drawing board. It is possible that some of the more dodgy ones will in years to come be 'saved' by a heritage railway that sees the usefulness of such a loco in its operations, and we may see all come to fruition.
     
  11. 6880rules

    6880rules Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    2
    Occupation:
    Motor Trade
    Location:
    Southport
    A very good question and debate with some excellent comments coming through

    Having been involved with one of the above mentioned projects my views are now stricly my own

    The key to any project of this nature is the people behind it there ability to promote/sell the idea to others you are selling a dream and asking them to be part of it fror so much a month , it is VITAL you keep these peopole on board look after them so keeping the cash flowing in

    I seem to be meeting many out there who used to support "a" project but dont anymore due to being treated badly

    Money is and always wil be vital without it no progress, no progress, no more money a vicous circle

    Networking produces some amazing results and will save you huge amounts of time and money remaining insular will do you no favours unless you have a million plus in the bank and dont care

    Reality is a subject that some need to learn basic maths is another

    If you tell your membership that it is likely to cost a million and your income is about 30k then it will take 33 years provided your income doesnt decrease labour rates dont increase and neither does the cost of matereials. reality check please ?

    So lets say it takes 30 years to build and most of the directors right now are in there 40s/50s that puts them in there 70s/80s never mind the people who are putting the money in, reality check again please?

    I am very aware of progress on certain projects and i am in no doubt as to what will be the outcome if based purley on the personalities behind them, and on there progress and fund raising abilities so far

    Some will come together very quickly i can see huge progress in the 6 - 12 months others will take a littler bit longer
     
  12. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I fear that some in this thread, even Maunsell Man with whom I agree 90%, have got a little carried away. For example, there is no Brighton tender loco., apart from Gladstone. Why build an Atlantic rather than the C2X which would be far more suitable when it comes to earning its keep and a simpler, cheaper, job?

    Coming clean, I drive a new build 2ft. gauge loco from time to time. In order to protect the guilty I won't say where. It has been enormously successful but had it been determined that nothing less than a Vicicongo 2-10-2T would suffice then progress would not have got much further than a couple of buffer beams during my lifetime. This is quite apart from boring considerations such as axle weight and wheelbase.

    Any suggestions that those who travel are more likely to be "turned on" by large locos is, to my mind, just a bit of gricer's special pleading. Quite a few such passengers really can't tell margarine from butter. Recently I was asked when watching the W&LLR vintage train arriving at Raven Square if "Countess" was a counterfeit diesel locomotive dressed up in a tin case!
     
  13. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,741
    Likes Received:
    2,017
    Location:
    Nantwich, Cheshire
    Maybe you should change your forum name to 5199rules instead lol.
     
  14. 6880rules

    6880rules Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    2
    Occupation:
    Motor Trade
    Location:
    Southport
    haa haa

    i think its about time i did

    Thanks Gav

    Stick it on my jobs list

    but there again never say never
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Two reasons really. Firstly, the sentimental - there are Bluebell members (and others) in sufficient numbers who would like to see it built, especially as the preservation of the real Beachy Head failed only by a couple of months. Any new build needs to tug on the heart strings of enough people who really want to see loco A recreated, rather than, say, loco B. If railway preservation was solely about doing whatever was most commercially practical, we'd be restoring 80100 instead - and for that matter, maybe wouldn't have restored many of the pre-grouping carriages.

    And the practical reason is that a boiler exists for an Atlantic, taking away one of the single most challenging aspects of the build - it was the existence of this boiler that kick-started the project. I'd suspect that, in cost terms, building a complete C2X from scratch would probably cost more than building the Atlantic with a pre-existing boiler, despite the Atlantic being a bigger engine. Once built, Beachy Head will be about the right size for our line; certainly it should cost less to run than a WC/BB pacific.

    Tom
     
  16. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Add to that the fact that working Atlantics are a tad rare in the UK whereas working 0-6-0 tender locos aren't quite such a rarity.
     
  17. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    To get some of these projects really moving you need to start appealing to the younger generation with professional incomes.
    There's plenty of people still, in the city, with good 6 figure incomes, think nothing of dropping a grand on a day out driving a ferarri, a weekend away, tank driving, etc etc.
    They are educated people and seek a challenge, driving a steam locomotive is exactly that.
    Would it even cross their minds as an option.. Not a chance, because they have no idea it's even an option.

    Appeal to the right people who knows what could happen.

    There's so much talk about the younger generation, but it seems to stop at 16.
     
  18. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    6,122
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Railway Technician
    Location:
    8C / 5D / 27C / 71B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You need the right people in the right place. Look at how things went for 60163 when Mark Allatt became more prominent. A business mind that realised money was all that was stopping them finishing, so he went about rectifying that. May not be the best engineer, but that's not his skill and he saw there was a good enough engineering team there already to do the work, it was merely finances that restricted what they could do. And hey presto we now have an A1 drawing crowds wherever it goes.

    And this is the main issue concerning all locos, raising the money. All these new builds are a business selling a product, that product being the site/sound/smell of an operational loco that many believed would only be a memory to those before us. If you can't sell your product then you will not succeed, no matter how good your intentions are.
     
  19. dace83

    dace83 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,095
    Likes Received:
    4
    Just my personal opinion of what will get going

    1. Hengist yes (v long term)
    2. The Unknown Warrior yes
    3. Betton Grange yes
    4. 82045 yes
    5. Atlantic project yes
    6. County yes
    7. Lady of Legend yes
    8. G5 tank yes
    9. F5 tank no
    10. Standard 2 tank yes
    11. P2 "cock of the north" no
    12. P2 "mallard shape no
    13. Sandringham no
    14. Gcr 567 no
    15. 5at Project no
    16. 762club L&B ?
    17. Claud Hamilton no (sorry!)
    18. GWR 47xx ?
    19. LNWR 670 no
    20. bloomer yes
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Don't want to be seen as "having a go" at the Bluebell which I am not but if "sentimentality" is going to be the principal driving force then there is a rather iconic Adams radial tank which could do with a new boiler. The Atlantic will have an elderly boiler which I am not sure is exactly the same as the Brighton design. A bit like the broad gauge "Iron Duke" with its "Austerity" innards.

    As an aside (but arising from the above posting), the set of six four wheeled carriages on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway makes strong economic sense as well as being a delight to the eye. Low tare weight and high carrying capacity means a (reboilered) A1x can haul serious numbers of people for a couple of tons of fuel a day. Such things need to be thought about more.
     

Share This Page