IOM Pender at MOSI

Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

The IOM Loco's are in a national collection - the MANX national collection of what is possibly the largest fleet of Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T's surviving in the world. Why do you think the Isle of Man should hand over another of it's Loco's from it's national collection to the predominately English national collection which is in York? If it's that important to have a IOMRLy 2-4-0T Beyer Tank in the national collection then why don't you move Pender to York (or make MOSI an outlier).

I always laugh when I hear the phrase "Unlikely to steam" - didn't they say that about Caledonia (and imagine if you'd suggested it would run up snaefell again..), and Sutherland, plus a number of other IOMR loco's that have been out of service for a number of years (I even recall that phrase being used about No 13 Kissack).

No locomotive in the IOM is beyond being restored to steam given the right amount of money and will to do so. If you feel it's so important for the MANX national collection to be on display then why don't you raise funds for a bigger Manx national railway museum?

And let's face it in this day and age there's particularily more expertise concerning keeping Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T's running (under their own steam not using an electric motor) in regular service in the Isle of Man than there is in Manchester or anywhere else in the adjacent islands..

 

Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

Correct me if I am wrong but alot of them aren't in the best of health on the isle of man...
Sutherland isn't assembled and is tucked away, Mona is in unrestored condition tucked away, no7 is a set of frames... so of little use to man or beast, fenella is currently tucked away but could come back soonish should the will arise, douglas is tucked away and so is Maitland.

Thats alot of kit stored away doing little, as they are so interesting is there really no reason why one couldn't make it to York even for a while...?


Anyways, to the 06 it is good to see it is getting some proper museum space!

 

Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

Sutherland is tucked away - pending restoration to running order.
Mona and Douglas are stored away - pending removal of the asbestos - which is the big bugbear as the IOM Govt is going to have to pay some £50,000 to have it removed. Mona is being considered as a candidate for restoration once this work is done, Douglas for exhibition (as it's the only loco publically viewable that has Salter Safety Valves).
Fenella is pending restoration to service - once and agreement has been sorted out between the society who owns it and the IMR. This stupid arguement has left the loco in bits despite the parts being ready to restore it to service for years. The issue got resolved - then lo it blows up back again.
7 has been a set of frames for about 60 years - I guess that could be considered to go to the NRM for say an exhibition on UK build loco's for export on agreement that the NRM should have the rest of the bits build for it, and have it back on the IOM in running order in say 10 years time?
There's been a lot of work done on the running stock in recent years - in particular the biggest overhaul on the Cale since it was built.
As for 16 well she's a museum piece as she has original parts on here - any restoration to running order would remove these parts, and so she is exhibitited in the Musuem as she's too large for current traffic to justify restoration to running order.


There is no reason at all for any IMR Loco to go to York - unless there's a done deal that it's coming back restored to running condition. You keep missing the point, it has no place in a UK national collection at all. As we've seen with Pender once it goes to the UK it rarely comes back - you robbing us of our industrial heritage is wrong.

What killed the IoMRly?... well lets face it, it was the death of tourism. Sending an IOM Peacock to the UK would in no way help the IOM's tourism in a large way (Pender has pretty much proved that). Therefore why on earth send any more IOMRly locmomotives to an increasingly distant foreign country for their enthusiasts to appreciate rather than come here? Considering that since the 1990's many enthusiast have stopped visiting the IoM despite special events being put on where you get to see many of the strored loco's then those who live in the UK who bemoan the situation on the IoMRly here yet do not visit have mainly themselves and their fellow countrymen to blame. The IOMRly did a good job of saving a lot of it's loco's, as much as their resources could allow. It was during times when cash was short that things were lost, and that cash was short due to the death of the Tourism industry (but the birth of the finance sector ensured there was sufficient resources in the pot to safeguard the IoMRly).

I guess there's a strong arguement for an exhibition (of photo's and information only) on the IOMRLy at a venue in the UK, but only to draw attention to it. You're far less likely to go and visit something if you can see a physical artifact from it, than if you have to go there and see it yourself.

 

Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

Yes it is isn't it and the bloke has that very distinctive English name too. Now my surname marks me out as part of the IoM diaspora and I think of the IoM as being British.

Regards

 

Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

[IRONY MODE = ON]

I suppose you're also of the strong opinion that the United Kingdom's National Railway Museum's LSWR T3 should not have been loaned and travelled over to Canada unless it was going to be fully restored to running condition whilst it was was there too? That it was returned in the same condition it left isn't good enough?

Isn't it truly appalling that Beyer Peacock sold the locomotives, which come from England in the United Kingdom, to a foreign country in the first place! Much like the Elgin Marbles, the fact they left the country of origin is an unfortunate case of money grabbers only too willing to flog 'em to who-ever turns up with the cash, even if that meant some foreigner. Those short sighted actions have now robbed the UK (and Manchester in particular) of its 3ft gauge industrial heritage - how disgraceful.

In a similar way to how the Elgin Marbles should be returned to their country of origin, no doubt you are also of the strong opinion that having had a temporary home on the IOM, all of the Beyer Peacock locomotives should also return to their rightful country of origin too. Presumably the National Railway Museum in the country where they were built would be an appropriate, safe, and logical destination for their rightful homecoming?!

[IRONY MODE = OFF]

LOL

I'm sorry, but I don't see spitting dummies out now and making a fuss on the internet is going to change anything. People might not like the arrangements under which 'Pender' left the IOM in the first place, but it's a bit late moaning now 30 odd years later.

...and it's no use whining at the receipients of the loco, any annimosity should be focussed at those in the foreign country who agreed to its departure from their shores in the first place.

 

Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

If nothing else can this thread be separated as the majority is steam based and it is actually in the iiesel section... I only stumbled over it by accident and I suspect that there are many on the forum who have no interest in diesel and thus don't come here - but will have some interest in the wider thread.

 

Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

Indeed but I suspect there is more to this than meets the eye.

 

Whilst I can kind of see where Mr Thomson's coming from, surely Pender is doing more good for the IoM cause by being seen, rather than being stuck in a shed or even parked in a 'headshunt of doom' on the Island? If anywhere other than the IoM has to be considered for displaying her, surely her birthplace is appropriate.

It's all very well saying that 'this could be done, that could be done' etc, but the reality is that it's all ultimately down to time & money. Also, as others have said, this was all set up a very long time ago. Time to move on, but nevertheless be pleased that Pender is on show, albeit sectioned.

 

Point 1 - no but that's not the bargain I would drive if any UK based museum wanted to BORROW any more of our locomotives. Take it or leave it...Even if Pender was returned to the IOM then it wouldn't be in the condition it left the Island - unless substantial remedial work was done beforehand - in which case why not return it to running order?.....

Point 2 - nice play on words, but if you check I didn't state that any IOM Rly stuff should return to the place it originated from, I would argue it belongs on the IoM as it has far more cultural attachements to the IOM than it does to Manchester. That it has more siginificance in the IOM is evidenced by the way it was treated after arrival in Manchester following being scrounged from the island. Oh and incidentally the manager who arranged for No2 Derby's frames to be scrapped (along with a lot of other distruction) was from the UK too....

Point 3 - Beyer Peacock has sold many foriegn countries locomotives in the past. No doubt you'd like to see the Norweigian Beyer's brought to Manchester and sectionalised too? At the point at which they were sold Britain and the Isle of Man were closer linked, but those links have grown somewhat more distant over time...

Point 4 - You still haven't given any valid reason as to why an Isle of Man Locomotive belongs in a UK national collection?...

Point 5 - whilst the muppet of a politician who paid such disregard to our railway heritage as to palm off a locomotive to someone who was cousins with a politician certainly deserves some animosity (along with the General manager who arranged the disposal of other railway assets) I think that the individual who decided it would be such a great idea to sectionalise a 19thC loco which was LOANED to MOSI also deserves some contempt.

 

1, MOSI has plenty of locos from all around the world that come from Manchester including a South African Garrett, a Pakistani Beyer Peacock and a Dutch, orignally BR, 1500. They IoM loco fits in there as part of a display of Manchester built locos.

2, What the hell are you on about with your historical nationalism? Nobody from Gibraltar or the Falklands is charging around asking for stuff "back". Should the museums in the UK that have Pucaras, G-Wagens and Panhard AMLs in the UK give them back to the Falklands. How about you give one of the Tralee and Dingle railcars to the appropriate society and we'll give the Beyer peacock back?

I can understand your points but there's already plenty of Beyers at the Isle of Man, many of which aren't being used or restored but are sitting festering... if the Manchster one were to come back it wouldn't be seen by many thoousands every year and would likely just sit in a shed doing nothing. In fact at the MoSI I'd bet that it makes a small contribution to raising the profile of the IoMR. Its not particularly nice to see a loco sectioned but once it is done it is done and it does give the general public some awareness of how the locos work.... a la Ellerman Lines

 

Which Tralee and Dingle Railcar is that then?....

If you're referring to the County Donegal Railcars 19 & 20 which have spent more time on the IoM than they did on their original line, well the topic of discussion has arisen about whether to send them there... Also the IOMRly OWN's the two Railcars, whereas MOSI was purely LOANED Pender...

Actually you're wrong to say that Pender is any more visible to those at MOSI than it would be in the IOM - at the point at which Pender left the IOM, it along with it's sister engines was regularily on display to the general public. There's also a railway museum in Port Erin (which given some people think the NRM should have an IOMRly Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T in the National collection, plus the NRM's outlier policy, then maybe the NRM should be sending money to encourage the display of more Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T's in the IOM...)...

It's more because of the Health and Safety Culture (another UK import) that locomotives have become less visible to the public. In my childhood you could easily go into the workshops or Carriage sheds to see any locomotive which was there on the Island.

 

Having grown up in Manchester, I've spent many happy hours looking at the insides of Pender, when visiting the MOSI to look at all the other exhibits of wonderful machines build in Manchester by the people of Manchester. I does belong there as part of Manchesters heritage, and is in secure, dry storage.

Regardless of who/how/why it is where it is and in sectioned condition, IF it were to returned to IOM tomorrow, would you push all other projects aside and restore it straight away as your main project - No, that would be stupid when you have more complete locomotives waiting in line to be restored.

Maybe a good way to look at this would be to say, that when all the loco's currently on the IOM are in full running order, and it is shown that you do not have enough motive power to cover service demands, and you have the funds available to restore Pender, then maybe there would be a case for it's return - until that point this is all hot air and it is doing a much better job in safer conditions exactly where it is.

 

Hang on a minute, you think you can set conditions for a country to regain it's property when Pender was only Loaned (do you understand what Loaned means because there seems to be a lot of people who don't on this page?) to MOSI, and MOSI has hardly fufilled it's side of the bargain to the full - there's hardly any material which shows the history of Pender and the IOMRly, and she 'runs' every day using an electric motor?.....

 

Oh dear, you know I always thought that Manx people were friendly and enjoyed the fact that people from over took an interest in the island and its wonderful heritage, be that the railways, the mining, the vikings or many other facets. However from the tirade launched here I almost begin to wonder if I'm incorrect and what they really want is to have a nice little fence erected round the island to keep everyone else out! I'm sorry Allan but you're doing nothing to promote the Manx culture and heritage and encourage people to visit (unlike Pender at MoSI which is undoubtedly doing just that) thereby providing much needed revenue to the island's people (except those who are there purely to take advantage of its generous tax benefits!). I will be back to the island one day but I hope I meet the friendly and welcoming Manx people I know live there.

 

I'd be quite happy to welcome you to the island and show you about (including the many hidden railways that most people don't know about , I think you should reserve forming an opinion on me until you've actually met me. Regardless to say the railways of the IOM are something I am passionate about. As regards Pender attracting people to the IOM, I very much doubt it, there's an insignificant and tiny board next to it with some innacuracies. It's more likely to attract Manx people to MOSI than vice versa.

 

The bargain you would drive... perhaps you could enlighten us as to what your position for driving bargains is?
Are you just some IOM trainspotter, or do you actually hold a position of responsibility to negotiate loans/transfers?

As for your focussing on "Pender", I think you'll find the issue had become wider about a 3ft Gauge Beyer Peacock being a worthwhile addition to this Country's national railway collection - afterall they were designed, built and sucessfully sold to a foreign country from here, so represent the strong presence the Unitied Kingdom once had in exporting railway locomotives to the world.

No play on words involved. You have stated you think the Elgin Marbles should return to Greece (where they originate from) despite this country legitimately purchasing them a long time ago. However, you don't think any railway locomotives should leave the IOM to return to where they originate from BECAUSE they were legitimately purchased a long time ago by the IOM... hwell:

You may be correct that the locomotives have cultural attachments to the IOM, but previously you'd said they were of no relevance to England and the UK. Well without the efforts of Mancunian labourers they wouldn't exist, they very much represent the heritage of this country and those in this country who designed, built and successfully marketed and sold them overseas.

Yawn - because they wouldn't exist if it hadn't been for a large (now absent) UK based manufacturer, with UK designers, UK labourers and UK sales departments producing the blessed things in the first place! If a UK National Railway Collection isn't supposed to display the design and manufacturing efforts and industrial heritage of the UK, what country's products is it supposed to display?

Both railway and road locomotives have been brought back from the furthest reaches of the globe to be displayed in the UK - back home where they were designed & built.

Once again, despite your emotional use of language: An approach was made to the officials in the IOM about a locomotive, those officials agreed to the loan/transfer of that locomotive to this country. If you're not happy about that, then I suggest once again you focus your tantrums to the officials in your own country, and not spout hot air to people who are in no position to do anything about it here! Just what exactly do you hope to achieve by moaning here?

The terms of the original loan agreement will define the duration of its stay in this country and what can and can't happen to it. I highly doubt work would have started to section the locomotive without the knowledge of the relevant IOM authority at the time it happened if that was a breach of the agreement - so once again I suggest you focus your vitreol to those in your own Country.


As for the future, well the sectioning of the locomotive in question does not prevent it ever steaming again (although of course an IOM condition of its loan being that it isn't restored to working order would prevent that happening!). Both of the Welshpool & Llanfair Light Railway's original locomotives have had entirely new boilers as a matter of course as the originals have worn out, the Talyllyn Railway's Fletcher Jennings 19th century locomotive is now on its second entirely new boiler in preservation, so the fact that "Pender"'s boiler would need replacing is hardly revolutionary.

That the cylinder has been chopped is unfortunate with regard to restoration aims, but from photographs the cylinders look to be pretty unremarkable simple affairs. Similar cylinders have been cast and machined for various narrow gauge locomotives in the past, and significantly more complicated cylinders have been cast and machined by private individuals working on road steam engines.

Essentially the bottom line is there's nothing preventing restoration to working order if the owners (rather than a load of vocal IOM train spotters) wished for that to happen. Yes restoration would be a bit easier if it hadn't been sectioned, but hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it!

One person throwing teddy around on an internet forum is not about to change the history of what has happened in the past, and neither are they going to change what happens in future by doing that. If you want to see "Pender" return to steam in the IOM then I suggest you stop the public tantrums here and start doing some serious work in your own country, probably starting with getting support from the IOM authorities and getting them to dig out the terms of the original loan agreements to see if there is provision for it to return. ...afterall, if it is on a 99year loan then it's only a matter of time before it goes back anyway!

 

Here we have a great example of why I infrequently use Nat Pres these days; a random topic, plucked out of thin air by someone on a soap box, shouting off despite NO-ONE being in agreement with their argument!

However, as a MOSI employee, I feel compelled to have my say in defence of what is proven to be a superb museum:

If Pender leaving the IOM offends you so much Allan, why did you not complain in 1977 when she left? If it upsets you to see the loco sectioned, why did you not complain 30+ years ago when the loco returned to her birthplace to be sectioned by Beyer Peacock apprentices? If it annoys you to see the loco on display in MOSI, why did you not complain in 1983 when she was first put on public view?

As for the condition of the loan to MOSI, perhaps you could prove that permission was NOT given by the IOM Government to section the loco or display it in “running” order (despite being driven by an electric motor)? Have you brought this to the attention of the IOM Government or MOSI Curators in writing or are you just arguing your "facts" to people on a forum who can’t disprove them more than three decades after the event because the IOM as a whole obviously doesn’t care?

Sadly, MOSI have to deal with this all the time- on many occasions, South Africans have expressed displeasure that the GL class Garratt isn’t still dumped in an African railway yard having its non-ferrous metal stolen by thieves. I am constantly accosted by Pakistani visitors wanting the SPS 4.4.0 returned to Pakistan so it can be turned into Razor Blades. Dutch visitors are also notorious for wanting the EM2 back in Holland away from its birthplace as it has no right to be in Manchester. (Speaking of which, I will now spend next week looking into how we can dispose of "Planet" and all the other Manchester built items, as it’s now apparent they obviously have nothing to do with Manchester and should be returned to their users or previous owners....)

Therefore, it would seem apt that Pender should never have left the IOM and be left to await her fate: being displayed outside at Douglas until in a poor condition then being dumped away from sight like No.9 perhaps? Or she could have been left to rot next to No.7 at Castletown or cannibalised for spare parts? She may have even been scrapped like No.2, as with a knackered boiler and cracked R/H cylinder, she would have been bottom of the queue to be returned to steam. The final option could be that she would be sold privately, squirreled away in a barn and never seen again like No.14?
Either way, these all seem like much better options than the worn out loco being sectioned for demonstration, repainted into original livery, cleaned and then displayed undercover in a secure museum environment where she can be viewed and admired by hundreds of thousands of visitors each year!

Back to reality; as MOSI have yet to receive any letter from the IOM Government demanding the locos restoration and return to the island, perhaps we can ignore this as a random flight of fancy by an individual with a personal axe to grind?

Finally, I would be interested to hear the opinion of the IOM Tourist Board at Manxmen who regard English as thieving "foreigners" who steal Manx items? As someone who has regularly enjoyed holidays in Port Erin, I can only apologise for not having a Manx surname, or indeed not being from the Island at all! I am glad I have never met a person who regards their Tourists in this way or have such strong views. Otherwise, without “foreign” tourists to ride on it, the IOM Steam Railway would have closed long ago if all Manx regarding the English in this way....

 

1. Yep, those are the ones. They were first used in Ireland and since yoou haven't sent them back regardless of the conditions in Ireland you haven't got any moral highground to grandstand here about us stealing your loco.

2. At the point which Pen Dennis castle left BR it was regularly hauling expresses across the western region. As has been pointed out the loco would have either been scrapped, sold into private ownership or tucked up to do nothing.

3. I suppose you are plagued by similar horrors like that awful Queen and our forces defending us, in which Manxmen serve.

Finally, as has been pointed out by MoSI staff... if there was actually any need or widespread desire to get the loco back it could be done easily but as it is your alone.