Midsomer Norton road bridge.

Go on then. Any road would need to link both Bath and Bristol with the South Coast somewhere between Bournemouth and Portsmouth, whilst avoiding being built through a National Park. If you can find a route I will be very surprised.

 

There's not as much as we would like - China will buy most of it. And with the fossil fuel focus moving to coal after the oil and gas dwindles, the cheap reserves will run out quite quickly. What we are facing is really the end of an era in which we didn't have to put energy conservation at the top of everyone's agenda.

And therein lies the problem. "Few people live near stations". Take a look at this map from the 1930s.



And that shows that the area north of Westbury was amazingly well served by the GWR alone. Here's a detail map.



And here's the S&D map.



The of these maps is to show that pretty much all of the population of Somerset was at one point within an hour's walk of a railway station. I like to think that it could work a lot like the Lokalbahnen in Vienna.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_Lokalbahnen

That service, with the same sort of station density we would end up with on the S&D works well, and does have small "Cargo Sprinters" doing freight runs. They're looking at expanding the service on to Bratislava as it is quite close.

http://robertfico.blogspot.com/2010/02/hannibal-vs-queen-in-bratislava.html

The population of Vienna and its metropolitan area is somewhere around 1.5 million, which is about the combined population of Somerset and Dorset.

The road network won't be redundant - there will always be road travel, possibly by electric vehicles, gas vehicles, even petrol vehicles, maybe even vehicles run on liquidised wood! But what will happen is that the balance will tilt back towards public transport being the more economically sensible method of moving people around. I don't see the motor car going away, but I do see it going back to being a little bit of an indulgence rather than a necessity.

And as for the "Lark Rise to Evercreech" comment, I wouldn't expect to see a horse and cart with Tesco written up the side. But it's entirely feasible that, using the otherwise wasted electricity generated at night from such sources as a tidal barrage on the Severn or wind power, a little electric van delivering my milk and groceries that I had ordered on the internet the night before for delivery from the rail connected distribution centre early the next morning.

http://www.milkandmore.co.uk/OA_HTML/ibeCZzpHome.jsp?minisite=10040&site=&respid=22372

All of that happens, except the goods are hauled on the road at the moment. I'll say it again, regardless of motivation, we all want the S&D back as completely as possible. And I think from reading everything pretty much everyone agrees that, although going south from MSN is the thing to do right now because it represents by far the easiest route, going north to get into Radstock is a target worth having.

 

No problem. A good starting point would be a map, a ruler and a pencil. From there you can deviate around the built-up areas.

Chris

 

For the North South road it's a question of political will and money. That area is relatively flat, just think of what they have to do in the Alps at up to 16'000 feet to drive a new road through. Technically it is much easier in the UK.

 

And unfortunately there is neither the will to run a road directly through a national park and several AONBS, not to mention people's gardens, nor the money to do so.

 

I'm getting a fun sense of deja vu here...time to get warmed up methinks!

 

First off, Id like to apologise for continuing to drag this thread of the subject of the potential of a line from Radstock to Midsomer Norton. Thats a laudable objective, and I wish all those involved the very best of luck. Having visited the area recently whilst going to Cranmore, I can see that what an evocative place it would be to see steam locomotives operating. Best of luck to you.

As for the greater S and D, I would point out that all those who suggest that a bypass is a valid alternative have a point. OTOH, its very clear to me having visted cranmore how utterly rubbish the road network in the area actually is. The argument for removing the S and D was that the road network would prove sufficient and could always be further developed. Well they have had nigh on 50 years to improve the road network, and as far as I can tell its at breaking point. IF what was being proposed was a bypass, nobody would criticise it. The problem is that as a railway line its instantly meets opposition, I would guess predominantly due to the belief that Rail is yesterdays transport solution. I dont know if a new S and D is a complete solution to transport problems in the area or not. But its clear to me that a north south transport route IS needed and has been for a very long time. If it is to be a rail line, the problem I have is how it integrates with the heritage groups already extant. Because you would quite easily end up with something like the Settle Carlisle, a well used freight line that sometimes has steam traction. I cant imagine the heritage groups being exceptionally thrilled at that being done to them, were it in fact to become possible. That to me suggests an entirely different north south route as much as possible.

Id LIKE to see a new S and D, as Im sure we all would. But I think targeting the rising cost in fuel as the core argument is a mistake. Yes, it may have validity, but until it happens it will always be subject to ridicule. If the argument is to create a Settle Carlisle in the SouthWest to get the tourists in, I think that would have greater validity. After all the Government suggests tourism is the way forward in the West Country. Let them put their money where their mouth is if they want to see it happen.

Lastly, from what ive seen of pictures of Google Earth along the route, there is significant urbanisation along the old line. Whilst that does make rebuilding of the line near impossible in some areas, I would suggest its also potential. That is a significant stream of revenue waiting to be tapped if the line was reinstated. Lets bear in mind, it was predominantly a freight route, and when that tailed off, the economics no longer worked. If sometime did a study of the amount of people who now live within five miles of the old route, I think they would be very greatly surprised. I think IF the line had been retained, it would (with reduced stations clearly) be financially viable. The problem you have is making the argument thats good enough reason for its reinstatement. I gather Government wont invest in anything that wont see over a twofold return in investment it puts in. Return there probably would be, but I think it would be a lot more modest than that.

Im not optimisic anyone in Government will buy any of the arguments mind, I would imagine the worst problem is that said line doesnt originate or terminate in London.But all said and done, it still doesnt strike me as a bad idea to try to reinstate the line. How you will get anyone to fork out the money to do its is the only question in my mind. Public subcription will only take you so far, and even Europe doesnt have bottomless pockets these days. Its a pity we dont have a Welsh Assembly to back it.

 

Motorways? What's a motorway?
As some of you may have already noticed, despite taxing the motorist heavily, both this Government and the previous one have realised that it is too expensive even to maintain the current road network we have (especially after another winter of serious weather damage) and the environmental argument against covering the UK in tarmac is now too great. My grandchildren will see the demise of the road network as we know it just like we saw the demise and the beginnings of the rebirth of the railway network. However, I also agree with the posters who suggest that some electric vehicles will become increasingly common. I reckon 2013 will be the year that non-petrol/diesel fuelled vehicles could become increasingly popular and start to seriously challenge the established order. (Nothing very scientific in that so don't ask me to show you by graphs, diagrams etc - its just a feeling in the water so to speak!)

Any answers yet to my previous post regarding the Silver Street Bridge local authority view?

 

No formal application has been made according to the BANES website.

 

It wouldnt attract so much ridicule if 'New S&D' supporters could explain how we get from now to the future they keep describing. It just seems to *happen*, with little mention of how long they see this transition taking or the wider effects on the world, the UK or even just rural areas like Dorset and Somerset. It doesnt help either that one person is saying the road network will be history while another says alternative-fuel vehicles will be around, albeit only seeing limited use.

Timescale in particular is very important to how this post-car world comes about - if the private car becomes uneconomic relatively quickly as has been suggested, increasing the cost of road transport substantially, then presumably traffic flows between and within our major cities and their commuter belts will be the priority. This will inevitably push jobs and people away from rural areas where the car will remain the only realistic choice and damage the S&D's business case yet further.

While i agree that there has been development along the line since closure, it remains the case that between Bath and Bournemouth the only towns of any great size are Radstock/Midsomer Norton, which has a mothballed link to the mainline at Frome, and Blandford which if needs be could be served by a branch from the mainline - rebuilding the rest will cost too much money to benefit too few people even if rising fuel prices dont see many of the potential users move away.

Im afraid i've yet to a see a decent reason why a line serving an area which isnt greatly deprived, serves so few people and so little industry could ever be a good use of anything up to a billion pounds - with travellers having little choice but rail between Bath and Bournemouth in this post-car world, even the improved journey time wouldnt help the economic case that greatly.

Chris

 

Not to the degree that Scotland has been deprived of transport. But I used to travel quite a lot to the Tank museum at Bovington, and I think the road network between Shaftesbury and Blandford Forum is absolutely shocking. I cant imagine it facilitates easy movement of lorries. Radstock is no better. Deprived, no. Ignored, yes, in my view.

There is also the traditional argument that although there is no industry in the area to service (I think there is some limited manufacturing in the Blandford area, including the army base which may or may not be shutting), one of the traditional arguments FOR railways was that they boosted local industry. Alright, when pickup goods went away that argument was lessened, but clearly a transport link of that nature would have an impact on light and medium manufacture. Even Tescos are increasingly moving a lot of their stuff by rail, so there clearly is some potential in developing freight. In a time of recession there is also the consideration that it creates work just building the bally thing.

To my mind, its a better argument than peak oil, and one that has had some historical proof of its occurance. Im not against a new S and D, but I find the arguments for its reinstatement curious, and the route they are choosing strange . But as a means of boosting rural areas economy, it does have some validity. In fact I wish they would concentrate on that more than some of this trendy green stuff. Yes it may ultimately have some basis, but since its not proven its not going to sell anything. And sell is what they really need to do here.

If its a choice between funding that and HS2 which the Government can sell off as soon as its built, its pretty obvious which one they are going to choose. It will stay that way until people realise rural economies can be just as significant as urban ones. There are no brainer redoubling efforts which the Government wont fund (Kemble Swindon springs to mind) so unless a really intelligent argument is made, New S and D will remain at the bottom of the list. I say that as a supporter of regional railways, and who thinks more of them should be reinstated. If they are just subsidising local communities, lets do it. Thats exactly what we do with the road network anyway.

Apologies once again for dragging the subject off topic. I dont think any of us doubt the validity of the heritage movement in the area.

 

In many ways this is correct - The bit from MSN into Bath would work nicely as a tram-style commuter route, given the traffic flows, and I'd make a punt on the same being the case down at Bournemouth. The bit in the middle is more of a question; certainly south of Shepton Mallett there isn't much in the way of population to make a stopping train viable. But that is in common with a lot of railway lines.

Through trains are more of an option; it would cut hours off the transit time to Bournemouth by public transport, and we can be certain that the line would be an attraction in its own right if done properly.

IMO, the MSN team are doing the right thing by going south. Getting real trains running on real line is brilliant - and having a nice bit of track to run on will convince the authorities (not just local) that it's a credible team with a credible plan. After that, comparing the options, I think attacking Silver Street needs to be come a priority, if only to get the run-around for the platform. Also it's a complicated matter with so many stakeholders, so will take a long time.

I'll say I'm nothing to do with the new S&D, but I do appreciate a lot of their arguments. It's difficult to explain how things will happen when we reach the "tipping point", but the only thing I can think of as a vague comparison is the move towards diesel cars. Pretty much as soon as they became an attractive proposition (around 2005 I guess) the number being sold skyrocketed.

A similar thing is going to happen with transport provision away from private to public transport, but because of the costs involved with building railways there will be a kind of inertia because everyone hates capital costs. We're seeing the start of it with HS2 though. The big unannounced change is that the WCML will be freed up to run a lot more commuter and freight services because there won't be express services. And that's going to drive large numbers of people to the train for commuting.

 

The reasons why light and medium industry stopped using rail wont go away because road transport becomes more expensive, it'll just make companies that are forced to use it a lot less competitive; even worse if they have to relocate nearer to a railway line. While Tesco are indeed using rail, it only provides another example of how rail remains cost effective only over long distances in bulk where its cheaper than a convoy of lorries between distribution centres - the operating costs are just too high for wagonload freight, especially without cheap labour.

To quote wikipedia "Peak oil is the point in time when the maximum rate of global petroleum extraction is reached, after which the rate of production enters terminal decline" - its not 'green' as it isnt an environmental argument, its the effect of supply and demand on a finite resource. The question isnt whether it will happen, but when and what the effects will be.

...significant in what way? The vast majority of the UK's wealth is generated by our major cities because that's where the majority of the population live and work; if transport costs are to rise then their size and importance to the economy will only grow further.

While there's obviously a case to be made for encouraging rural economies through investment, they will always have to show a positive financial case and thats where the 'New S&D' falls down - even if the global, UK and local economy is untouched by a massive increase in the cost of road transport, local people and employers remain where they are, and all the other disued railway's in the country have a business case thats even worse, i still cant see how the benefits of rebuilding the S&D will be large enough to offset the cost of rebuilding and operating it.

Btw i apologise too for this being slighty OT but i think its been made clear whats going on with the bridge in question. Besides, im still waiting for Panther to reply.

Chris

 

The nice thing about building one's very own private (although entirely imaginary) railway is that you can think of ways around things.

for example, Tesco doing rail freight. The reason it didn't work in the past is that they did not have the systems in place to manage it effectively. Nowadays, the same systems used for internet shopping could be adapted to make it work. Granted there are not many places that a supermarket has a rail spur, but I believe the future will be towards smaller shops anyway as cars become expensive. I can see local shops only stocking a fairly limited selection of items as standard (sort of like a Tesco Express), with special order stuff coming in from the main distribution centre overnight which could of course be ordered directly by the customer on the internet.

 

About 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile then you get to the MSN to Radstock road at 5 arches where the next bridge was taken out, quite a high arch bridge and the embankments shelved. then you go a nother 1/2 mile or so and you have the road crossing in Radstock central, then all the trackbed is developed through Radstock outside the museum.

Going south from MSN there is 1/2 mile and then Chillcomton tunnel aproach cutting is filled, I reconed 1/2 M cube of waste.If you get through that and the tunnel bore its 1/4 mile to Massey Willcox yard where the station was, then Mullbery have relativly new up market factory built on the alignment. get through there and next the A39 road bridge deck is missing although the abuttments look intact. In case you wonder I spent some time out there in about 96/97, when it first started. just a few observations. Its a nice project , but expansion is a big issue, if it is to stretch to anywhere.

You have to remember the GWR / BR Western Region had a hate relationship with this railway. When they closed it the demolition team were told to dissasemble it so that it could not ever come back that was why they burnt the box at Evercreech to start the ball rolling.

MSN is the only station left intact in the north section, because the school took it over before the buldozer got to it.That is the only reason I have the paper cutting from 1968 when the school took it on.

I knew the Ass District Inspector Bristol very well ( Sadly passed on now a great man on railway history and operation) he told me what the directive was back then as he had worked on the instalation of the N Som Line slip connection to get coal and the rail materials out at Radstock and attended the crash when the 8 loaded bogie flats crashed at Norton Hill.

 

Is there any update on the progress at MSN ? I read in one of the magazines that they have taken delivery of a operational DMU ? Sounds like a good move allowing passengers to experince a 'proper' trains as opposed to a industrial shunter and a brake van.

How is the work going to extend towards the tunnels at Chillcompton?

Great Western

 

Here's some recent photos I found on their Facebook pages.

Somerset & Dorset Railway - Photos | Facebook

 

Tracklaying progressing well (double track ) on the first part of the extension towards Chilcompton . Signals appearing ,DMU already in
service ,things moving forward. See interesting photos on website and Facebook.

Keith ,member SDHRT

 

I heard recently that John Buck had been elected chairman, well done John

I see that as a very defined and positive move within this organisation.

There is a lot to be done, and some very good people there trying, the work that's been done is to a good standard on the station and signal box, but the obstacles are large as I said before, but well done, for those who have acheived what they have.

The 108 DMU looks interesting .

 

I'll second that - when I contributed to one of the funds John Buck actually phoned me up to thank me, other societies could learn a lot from that sort of personal contact.

Re the bridge over Silver Street, yes there are certainly obstacles to overcome, and it was interesting in the last issue of The Telegraph to see what the various options are.

Cheers
Dave