6023 + 6024 Double Header to Plymouth - 10 March 2012 - UK Steam

repeat post

 

If that happens to the extent that trains stop filling then there will be pressure to look for alternative solutions - however as things stand the one off tours still seem to be filling well, despite the uncertainty over whether the route will work or the loco will be fit, whilst on the other hand the regular tours that are more than likely to offer route and at least steam haulage (due to pooled locos) tend to struggle to fill. If you need 100 people to make something viable and the 101st isn't happy with what you are offering you have no problem, but if the 98th isn't happy then you do. At present we are in the 101+ territory not the 98- territory.

So whilst the talk is of discontent and lack of bookings where uncertainty occurs, in financial reality uncertainty fills tours whereas certainty (aka repeat trips) don't.

 

Before long someone is going to get their credit card company/small claims court involved and then it will really cost a tour company. As Rogace says, take the hit, offer a cash refund, try to keep your customers happy, after all your first loss is always the least and, as I keep pointing out, SD have reduced their cost base for this tour by at least £5,000 so they do have some cash to play with.

The morality of some of those involved in the railtour business does seem to leave something to be desired.

 

at the end of the day most people like me are very REASONABLE...lol

steam train tours are an enigma, they are like trying to bring so much to the fore but we all know how fragile the end product is,
and yes we will book a trip on that basis knowing that can go wrong/be changed etc etc
however,
this trip was rather unforgiving for SD as it was offered to all the disappointed ACE customers, but we did come back and buy a ticket,
only to see the trip get changed sadly,
time for the damage limitation crew to get their busy books out lol. i am sure they will.!

i am surprised that just maybe a third Thunderbird was not around as a definite for this one what with both T and Duke coming
off winter overhauls and this being both their first m/line trips of the season>?

i would have been preferable to the idea the trip to have been cancelled and all of us been rebooked on the new trip
even if it was 2013.
i figure those cancellation costs would have been quite a alot...but in hindsight as we say lol

 

It does appear that bad luck has hit this tour. I am not sure on how costs are affected but either way its a shame and if they were to ensure enough leeway in the price to sustain payouts in these situations tours would have to get more expensive.

As for locomotives it appears that Union of South Africa and Princess Elizabeth are being used by Steam Dreams so does that mean a larger pool of locomotives?

 

sad to see this tour hasnt really come off as planned, but i dont think SD can really be held accountable for it, they requested the locos, and one is gonna be on the front of the train, sadly the duke isn't. But isnt this the risk we all take booking on to a steam railtour. The old girls, as reliable as they are, they are gonna take knocks, gonna have an off day, gonna have problems its just the nature of the beast. i know many aren't happy with the 47 being on the tour, but without it would the tour still run???

looking forward to seeing tornado blasting down the GWML on saturday and hope all that are booked have an enjoyable day

 

Unfortunately my browser has just seen fit to delete my rather lengthy post, so in an effort to save time I'll cut a long story short...

Clearly there are very mixed opinions on this one and I feel that we are unlikely to reach a consensus, so after this I shall probably refrain from posting to the thread again. However, in an effort to win more people over to my school of thought I shall try rephrasing things a little...

My main issues aren't with the latest debacle regarding the replacement of 71000 (though that is an annoyance I accept that it is not the fault of SD), my problem is more with the attitude of SD towards their customers. The 10% off the re-run of this trip is a nice gesture, but this is just SD wiping their face - what use is 10% off a specific tour to those who a) have no interest in going or b) cannot make the date next year? For me something better would have to be offered to entice me to consider booking with them again.

Yes, some operators e.g. Vintage Trains do not offer refunds where things such as the motive power or route are changed, but in my experience a far greater percentage of their tours run as advertised.

A far better model for how to operate is that adopted by Pathfinder and UK Railtours, who do not take any money until it is confirmed that a tour will run as advertised. I believe that in the cases where significant revisions take place to the product on offer, these companies will allow people to cancel their bookings with no quibbles. IMO in the case of this tour we should have been offered a full refund when the two kings were suddenly replaced with 60163 and 71000 and had that been the case I would have most probably cancelled; SD could have resold the ticket to someone who actually wanted to travel and everyone would have been happy - there would have been a little extra work in the SD office but that's business.

Even in light of my comments, I don't think even a few of us voting with our wallets will affect the SD balance sheet enough for them to care. In truth it is not the enthusiasts in the all-to-common poorly maintained Mk1 that SD care for, it is the general public, the family market who usually frequent first and premier dining - those who I suspect do not really care what is providing the motive power providing that it boils water and makes the right noises. A few less enthusiasts will be no major concern to SD (as I think is borne out by the move to premier standard), it probably just cause the replacement of a standard class vehicle with more first class eventually - SD know that even with a few hiccups it will take a long time before their true target market is exhausted and that is what really matters to them.

 

Absolutely! You've hit the nail on the head there. There is no point any of us moaning about SD - at the end of the day they are trying to run a business, not a railway enthusiasts' charity. If we don't like it we'll just have to use RTC, Vintage Trains or whoever.

As for Saturday, I've paid my money so I'll be there. I may even enjoy it!

 

I believe that all TO's advertise trips in all good faith. SD cannot be held responsible for the none availability of 6024 & 71000. The reasons behind their non-availability could not have been reasonably foreseen when the trip was planned. 6023 is a slightly different matter because the loco has no 'Main Line' provenance. There is a conundrum with such locos, including 34046. If TO's say that they won't operate a loco until it is Main Line proven, then that loco is likely to get passed and certified, and then sit for 6 months until a trip can be advertised and sold. Not many people in this game can waste 6 months revenue! Else the TO takes the chance, and get pilloried by the 'enthusiast' fraternity when the advertised loco is not ready, because they only booked because it was meant to be the first trip of 6024/34046/6258 (bit of wishful thinking there). As I have said before "Damned if you do, and damned if you don't".

There are, I believe, three sorts of passengers/customers on most tours:
1) The 'premier dining'. Dont care whats on then front as long as it's steam. Spotless coaches with clean and working toilets, heat and light. First class grub. Leave at a reasonable hour, and get back at a reasonable hour, on time. Have an experience which is unique, and they can tell all their friends about, almost regardless of cost.
2) The 'bucket and spade brigade'. A nice day out with the family, Mum, Dad & 2.4. Reasonable price, not too long a day, and reasonable facilities. Not quite the expectation of 1). (Torbays, Jacobite, Scarborough etc)
3) The 'Enthusiast'. Very cost conscious, and more interested in the loco being used, and the specific route. Likely to be vociferous in complaining if the wrong loco is used or the route is changed at the last minute, but not mind too much if 2 out of 3 toilets don't work. No TO is ever going to run a business relying on 3). alone.
So, how do we come up with a compromise that suits 1), 2) & 3) at the same time? When it come to Locos, groups 1) & 2) probably don't care whats on the front as long as its a Steam Loco, and will probably tell everybody they've been on Flying Scotsman anyway. With Group 3). we would cancel an awfful lot of trips at 2 or 3 days notice, because everything is not exactly what the TO aspired too six months before. This would almost certainly destoy the industry.
If somebody can come up with the definitive answer to this one it will be the end of National Preservations Forum, because there won't be anything left to talk about.
Happy Hunting.
A

 

Really Ralph - there seems to be quite a concensus of poor customer focus as regards this tour - 10% allowance being less than acceptable, postponment to another day when every ticketed class 7 or 8 isn't working somewhere else being an alternative, and a few just resigning themselves to yet again getting less than they paid for both in mileage and experience terms - and I really must get a "hobby" that brings in £60k every other weekend.

Get real - this is business, and pretty big business, for the promoters, not a hobby, and unfortunately they are taking the market for a ride in more ways than one all too often. It very much looks as though I will be reduced to one or two carefully chosen tours a year now because I'm not prepared to gamble at getting on for £100 a ticket, and frankly in my opinion, anyone who is prepared to do so is crackers.

For the rest of the time I have almost too much of vintage and transport interest to keep me otherwise occupied, so if all the steam tour market wants to do is walk all over its customers then I'm voting with my wallet. See you at Fleetwood, Beamish, Onslow Park, Newark and many another place where those who represent the tastes of 99% of the public hang out - because that's what the railtour market really is less than 1% of the population Alienating even part of that isn't the cleverest move the promoters can make.

The man's post snook in while I was triping

He's got some good and valid points - I would observe that coaches that are over or under heated, don't have working toilets etc are utterly unacceptable to any sector of the market, 1, 2 or 3

The food in premier dining is not high class at all - Costco's best is what I have generally seen proferred. High class dining implies a choice, not what the waiter brings, and steam tours do not offer any choice once on board.

I would agree that many in premier don't even know they are on a train - but cross them and you might find out that they won't stand for any nonsense either, and TO's are vulnerable there as has been proved on more than one occasion - although TO's don't want you to know that because you might complain too.

 

Troll, troll!

 

Frank your post is spot on. Also I have had the same suspicions as Yorkshire Pudden! As with a previous poster I will, if I want to travel on main line steam , use UK and Pathfinder as they at least appear to act with honorable intention.

With regard to two others operators I have first Hand experience of them continuing to promote tours with a certain locomotive over a month after they were officially notified that the locomotive concerned would not be available.

 

Don't see rail tour companies here yet.. Conspiracy Theories
Only a matter of time though surely.

:lalala:

 

Frank, I wasn't saying that the Grub is first class, just that that is what is expected by customers in group1). YP does not need to have 'suspicions' if he is refering to me. Most of you know, or have worked out, who I am, and I certainly have never made a secret of it. BUT anything I post is a purely personal observation, and in no way should it be construed as 'official dialogue' from any company or organisation. I only ever try to explain what has happened and why. If people don't want an 'unofficial' inside line, tell me to fxxk off.
This industry is, apart from a lifetime hobby, my living. I, and others who work with me have more to lose than any of you. It pays my morgage and feeds my children. It is my own interest to ensure that we feed the industry what it desires, demands and feeds on to the best of our abilities at all times.

 

We'll have to call you Manuel then!

Are you from Barcelona Ralph? (LOL. Wink.)


PS. Hang in there Ralph, keep your humour. Some very self opinionated people here on the forum.

What? Me!!! Never. (LOL several times).



PPS. Cost me a fivers worth of diesel yesterday to have 3 hours twenty minutes almost non stop Owl action to watch. Now that is good value for money compared to..............No, don't go there..........

 

I too am disappointed with this change but I will write to SD with my hopefully positive views rather than post here but let's try to look on the bright side. Tornado (not my favourite engine but heyho) will operate single headed with a heavy train over Savernake and Whiteball. Then, if the diesel keeps itself to itself as much as possible, we may find out just how much a new class 8 pacific can do. I have rarely seen Tornado seriously extended so it could be interesting.
By the way what is the load on this one?