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Crewe Heritage Centre for Sale

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by crantock, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. Peter Jordan

    Peter Jordan New Member

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    Here is a statement recently issued by Crewe Heritage Trust:

    THE 125 YEAR LEASE - Heritage Centre Site | CVS Cheshire East

    Peter Jordan

    Chairman, Exeter West Group
     
  2. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    I'm not quite sure what the relevance of this is, "The Trust has a 50 year lease of the site which expires in 2041 (when Mr Waterman will be 95 years old)."
    What does it matter how old he is.
     
  3. Peter Jordan

    Peter Jordan New Member

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    The relevance is that it is designed to reinforce to people the utter stupidity of what Cheshire East Council are doing. Why would anyone want to take on a lease now that will be of no benefit to them whatsoever for a further twenty-nine years? And is it very likely that Mr. Waterman will want to expand LNWRHCo. when he is aged 95 (assuming that both he and the company last that long?)

    Peter Jordan

    Chairman, Exeter West Group
     
  4. crantock

    crantock Member

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    Peter, it would probably be better if you pulled back from the Waterman vitriol and thought about how you, or EWG, can move forward alongside PW.

    The value of the lease to PW is twofold. Firstly, the value of his lease will rise as the length remaining on CHCs declines.

    Secondly, CHC can only enjoy their lease for as long as they pay the rent. That may be difficult if there are insufficient visitors. Attracting the visitors may be difficult if the site is a messy engineering works. (And I bet that you will find different Waterman vehicles will own the headlease and the engineering operation so any arguments in court are complicated).

    Exeter West is a valuable asset. It is well located alongside Crewe North. It would be a shame if it needed to be moved. I wish you well.

    But I ask again, is there an alternative viable business plan for CHC either with PW constrained or without him paying rent?
     
  5. Peter Jordan

    Peter Jordan New Member

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    Your latest posting, Crantock, shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. Crewe Heritage Trust don't pay rent for the site - their lease is at a rent of a peppercorn, the same as the proposed 125-year lease on offer from Cheshire East Council. Crewe Heritage Trust pay business rates but, as they are a registered charity, they receive a considerable rebate on the sum due.

    And if you have read the various documents that have been placed on the internet for folk to read you will know of the various promises that were made in the past, none of which were delivered upon. Trust has been totally destroyed and, in my view (and the view of others) cannot be recovered.

    Peter Jordan

    Chairman, Exeter West Group
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

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    The fact is that for the next twenty nine years CHC is entitled at law to full exclusive possession of the site, no matter who is their superior landlord, and may even be able to claim an extension on that. They are fully entitled to go to law and evict trespassers within that period, and their own landlord should really have set this in train before now.

    So they are 100% within their rights to negotiate with occupiers on a without prejudice basis to seek an amicable resolution - but in the shadow of an eviction application, which will all help with eventually securing their rights if necessary.

    As a charity no landlord who weighs in throwing their weight about, be they local authority or private individual is going to look good - and any trespasser who prevents the Trust from pursuing its proper legal business is likely to be in damages territory fairly quickly, and though it may pain Mr W greatly not to get everything all his own way - he might just find that here, he is up against it. Applications for possession are neither unusual nor particularly expensive and CHC should be looking that way already wherever L&NWR have overstepped their legal rights.
     
  7. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    Morning Tbird

    i think we have found an outlet for your undoubted talents which would be of tremendous use to CHC .
     
  8. Peter Jordan

    Peter Jordan New Member

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    While browsing 'Google' this morning I came across this interesting 'Facebook' submission regarding the Heritage Centre:

    Here is an... | Facebook

    Says it all really.

    Peter Jordan

    Chairman, Exeter West Group
     
  9. AndrewC

    AndrewC New Member

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    Hi Peter would you be so kind to repost the 'Facebook Submission' this is because I can't access the site until the weekend.

    Thanks in advanced,

    Andrew
     
  10. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    You mean copy the content to here ? .....

    " The Editor, Crewe Chronicle,
    Dear Sir,
    I refer to Cheshire East Council’s decision to sell the lease of Crewe Heritage Centre.
    It would be far more beneficial if the Council showed its mettle and supported the Heritage Centre, instead of ducking its responsibility by selling off the lease.
    The situation that exists was created by Crewe & Nantwich Borough Council when they allowed pop mogul Pete Waterman to first talk them into installing him as Trust Chairman.
    His promises of all he could bring to the Heritage Centre came to nought. The minutes of a meeting held in 1994 show that he promised many things including exhibits and the like, plus ensuring the site was cleared of all rubbish and debris and that he would finance all these changes himself.
    None of that was done and he furthered his own commercial interests instead with the creation of his LNWR engineering company.
    Crewe & Nantwich Borough Councillors on the Heritage Centre Trust were removed at the same time.
    The informal sub-let that was agreed spoke of defined areas that LNWR were permitted to use but those areas have since been greatly enlarged without formal Trust or council agreement.
    The Exhibition Hall is being occupied by LNWR for its engineering work to the detriment of the Heritage Centre exhibits and displays.
    Presumably the recent Council statement and report assumes the lack of exhibition space indicates a lack of self-sustainability which only highlights how misinformed they are. The Heritage Centre is a matrix of interesting and worthwhile elements and you only have to see what public support there is when a special event is held.
    It has been voiced many times before; the Heritage Centre does not need a sub-let activity which prevents at every stage the development of a necessary and vital attraction for the town but should be left to stand alone to draw on the resources of enthusiastic and dedicated volunteers to highlight Crewe’s history and culture and to reinvest income to improve the facilities.
    In addition they should be able to apply for Lottery and other grants to further that cause with full Council support.
    The comment that current management arrangements have failed is obviously based on the period 1994 to 2003, the period of Mr Waterman’s chairmanship when the activities and slow downward interest in the Heritage Centre was plain to see. Mr Waterman left the Trust in 2003 due to his conflict of interests.
    Since 2007 the Centre has moved on with many events supported by local railway businesses and organisations such as Freightliner, Royal Mail, “Help for Heroes” etc.
    Why have we not seen a Cheshire East publicity stand at any of these events in support of the Heritage Centre?
    The footprint of the new Tesco store now under construction sees that building positioned adjacent to the locomotive boiler testing location used by LNWR. I consider Cheshire East Council should look and take note of this as testing of high pressure boilers so close to a place where large numbers of the public will be frequenting could be considered dangerous.
    The fumes and smoke cannot be ideal especially when the new building will have multi level parking and store entrances facing the testing area.
    I urge the Council to consider offering the lease to Crewe Heritage Centre outright for the same peppercorn rent currently provided for in the existing Trust arrangements.
    The Council should both encourage and support all the efforts to enhance and further the role of the Heritage Centre in the community.
    I am chairman of a local Model Railway Group and we are supporting the Heritage Centre by holding a 2 day Model Train Show on 1st & 2nd October.
    We have visitors and exhibitors coming to our Crewe event from as far away as Luxembourg and from the USA for this show. A guy from New Jersey is staying at the Crewe Arms Hotel for 3 weeks to see Cheshire, its surrounding areas and ride the trains with his UK first class Railpass.
    This kind of event can generate considerable business for the town and create further opportunities to promote Crewe and the Heritage Centre. We know of at least 25 double rooms being booked in the towns hotels, highlighting that this issue is not just about the Heritage Centre but the overall economic benefits to the town that comes with successful promotion of events on the site.
    So come on Cheshire East show us some support and get behind Crewe Heritage Centre wholeheartedly to see it prosper for not just the people of Crewe but as an attraction that brings visitors and business to the whole area.

    Terry Wynne
    Wistaston, Crewe"
     
  11. AndrewC

    AndrewC New Member

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    Thanks for that.
     
  12. Stewie Griffin

    Stewie Griffin Member

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    I appreciate the sentiment behind it and the passion supporters of CHC feel, but is it really necessary to use such scaremongering terms as:

    "The footprint of the new Tesco store now under construction sees that building positioned adjacent to the locomotive boiler testing location used by LNWR. I consider Cheshire East Council should look and take note of this as testing of high pressure boilers so close to a place where large numbers of the public will be frequenting could be considered dangerous."
     
  13. Peter Jordan

    Peter Jordan New Member

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    I don't consider that remark about boiler testing to be 'scaremongering.' It raised a legitimate concern about public safety.

    As it happens events have overtaken that particular issue. Having lit up a boiler to test, one of the managers on the Tesco construction site took great (and understandable) exception to the smoke blowing across from the Centre and stated in no uncertain terms that that sort of thing would not be tolerated once the store was opened. So steam-testing of boilers now takes place over where the visiting main-line engines are usually serviced.

    Peter Jordan

    Chairman, Exeter West Group
     
  14. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Isn't that just typical though, boiler testing has gone on there for some time, if the right enquiries had been made by the legal team from Tesco, that would have been picked up. Now they are throwing their weight about because something has happened that they object to. Who was there first......
     
  15. Peter Jordan

    Peter Jordan New Member

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    The answer to the question 'Who was there first?' is very simple - the supermarket was, first in the form of Safeways and now in the form of the new Tesco. The 'engineering' aspect of the Centre didn't come about until the late 1990's, long after the supermarket was established.

    In fact when the supermarket was first built a restrictive covenant was put on the Centre's car park to ensure that it was used for no other purpose. Needless to say that covenant has been entirely ignored by LNWRHCo. and, apart from now having limited accommodation for vehicles, the car park is a disgraceful eyesore.

    Regarding smoke nuisance, I well-remember going into the old Safeway store one Sunday morning when the little Kerr Stuart 0-4-0 saddle tank that used to be at the Centre was (for some reason I can't now remember) being lit up while standing behind Exeter West Box. When I went into the store I quickly became aware that the smell was percolating into the building, so I returned to the Centre and arranged for it to be shunted away.

    So the potential problem has been known about for many years.

    Peter Jordan

    Chairman, Exeter West Group
     
  16. Stewie Griffin

    Stewie Griffin Member

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    I appreciate that things may have moved on (although on a smoke basis rather than a public safety one), but could you tell me where there has been such a public safety issue around boiler testing that would be considered to be 'dangerous' on any of our heritage railways or centres, many of which are just as open as the area in question?

    I feel such a comment does a disservice to the quality of work and, more to the point, professionalism, of many of the excellent boilersmiths at work in this country.
     
  17. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    I used the original Safeway supermarket frequently and sometimes stood in the car park watching locos that were being prepared. Never once was I aware of any problem with smoke. The two seemed to get on OK in those days.
    As you said the new Tesco has moved a lot closer to the the CHC, so it could still be argued that they have put themselves closer to what they perceive as a problem. But echoing Stewies remarks, where has there been a public safety issue with boiler testing before.
     
  18. keith6233

    keith6233 Member

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    I would have thought the noise of riveting outside would have been a greater problem ,look at the Severn Valley banned from riveting outside after some new houses were built near the railway.
     
  19. Peter Jordan

    Peter Jordan New Member

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    I don't think you'll find that you ever saw steam locomotives being prepared immediately adjacent to the fence separating the Heritage Centre site from the supermarket car park. Locomotive preparation should take place down at the end of the running line, by the platform, where the coal pile is. I've already explained what happened on the one occasion that I saw a locomotive being prepared in the wrong place, and I never saw this happen again afterwards.

    Regarding the testing of boilers, the remark about professionalism is a 'red herring.' Apart from the need to check and set safety valves, if the insurance companies were entirely satisfied with the standard of all work, they wouldn't require a steam test, would they? And do other sites where steam tests are taking place do them immediately adjacent to where members of the public are engaged in business with another company? If so, I'd be interested to know if their insurance indemnifies them against a claim for injury or death caused to someone on the adjacent land.

    While it may be true that there have been no serious boiler accidents in this country involving members of the public, there have been serious boiler accidents including a few fatalities. Personally I wouldn't want to risk having a boiler in steam near members of the public until it is properly certificated and insured. In fact, to do so is probably illegal. You wouldn't be allowed to steam a traction engine at a rally without full certification and insurance, so presumably the same requirements apply to railway locomotive boilers.

    But we are rather getting away from the subject of the Heritage Centre lease sale.

    Peter Jordan

    Chairman, Exeter West Group
     
  20. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Ok then so I don't know what I'm talking about, just a loco sitting there simmering gently and support crew members busy round her. That to me is doing prep work, but perhaps you know better.
     

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