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New builds - how many will ever really work?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Maunsell man, Aug 23, 2011.

  1. knotty

    knotty Member

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    Last I looked the website hadn't been updated for some time but perhaps that's at least one sign of seriousness - more time building the thing and less time spent creating a facebook fan page. Do you have any confirmation of the current status? Is there any place where the progress can be read about. I understand that a considerable amount of the engine was complete more than a year ago so I'd like to believe it was true.

    Another similarly useful engine would be Midland Rly Johnson 0-4-4t in it's original condition (Johnson front-end and fully-lined MR livery would be ideal in my opinion). Once common and a really fine and useful engine for the preservation scene.) Perhaps after the NER G5 they might consider the Midland equivalent?

    Incidentally, I understand that the LBSCR Marsh H2 Atlantic at Bluebell is expected to be steaming in 2013?

     
  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Very unlikely I'd say - I don't think the project team have ever given a date beyond "it'll be ready when it's ready".

    On the plus side, there exists frames (including tender frames), wheels, cylinders, most of the motion, buffers, reverser, boiler barrel, firebox. On the to-do list - tender body, pistons and valves, all the platework, smokebox, chimney, brakes (air and vacuum), prepare the boiler and a myriad small components, as well as put it all together...

    As with most such projects, cash is one of the limiting factors. However, I suspect that even if some generous benefactor came and handed over all the needed money tomorrow, it would still take more than a 12 - 18 months to finish (as implied by a 2013 steaming date), simply because of the lead time in preparing drawings, making patterns, finding suppliers etc.

    If I had to pluck a date out of thin air, based on the rate of progress that has been made in recent years, I'd suggest 2015 might be realistic. But don't hold me to it.

    Tom
     
  3. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    That's an interesting idea, and one that I would support, being a Midland man, although again it all comes down to money...

    Having said that, iirc the idea of building one of these wonderful locomotives was mooted a few years ago, in connection with the 1F (4)1708 possibly needing a new boiler? It was suggested that there could be some 'economy of scale' by building 2 boilers, I think.

    One of them was, of course, preserved, along with a Kirtley 0-6-0 (now one of these would be great too, although as we have 158A preserved, albeit never going to run ever again as she's too fragile, could one really add to the preservation story?), but they were broken up on the orders of Stanier when he arrived at the LMS :(

    Mark
     
  4. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    There is a very recent press release on the G5 project's website stating that the components had been transferred to Shildon for assembly.
     
  5. knotty

    knotty Member

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    @paulhitch
    Fantastic news. Admittedly I'd not checked it for sometime given it hadn't been updated in a while

    @MartinDurham
    I'm a Midland man myself. I'd love to see a Johnson 0-4-4T (pictured)or a small-boilered four-coupled bogied express new build in their pre-Deeley condition. Or perhaps one of those Kirtley 0-4-4 well tanks would be a fascinating engine and a real draw-card. mr-1833-22222.jpg
     
  6. knotty

    knotty Member

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    Or this (Johnson-boilered,Kirtley 0-4-4WT). I don't want to give stuart reeder any ideas although as far as I know there aren't any Hornby or Bachmann models! mr-690-692.jpg

     
  7. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    Hi knotty I fear we're going OT, but yes, the 0-4-4WT is gorgeous :) ROFL at the reeder comment :p

    Back OT - that's great news about the G5; thanks for the heads-up, paulhitch. Coming soon to a railway near me, I think :D
     
  8. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I know that it is not yet complete but the G.5 project shows the advantages of a sensible prototype with similarly sensible people in charge who have access to some funds. Yet the gricer magazines have almost ignored it and the same is true of this forum to an extent. Significantly, the NRM has not ignored it.

    Please, no more projects until more of the present ones are substantially complete.

    P.H.
     
  9. detheridge02

    detheridge02 New Member

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    I don't think it's right to say stop any more new projects being started. Whilst there are a number out there at the moment we now have several projects making significant progress such as the Patriot, Betton Grange and Hengist to name but a few. If you laid the frames down now the completed loco will still take 10 to 15 years to complete unless the project has significant labour and financial resources. That's a fact nobody can argue with. There are no longer the facilities in this country that could turn a loco out in a year, an overhaul takes longer than a year alone. The large works such as Rileys, LNWR, SVR and South Devon have waiting lists which must also be factored into a build plan.
    Although biased as I'm part of a new build project, I think anyone (well ok within reason) should be commended for starting a new build. The 'original' steamers can't keep going forever before you hit the 'I've had this broom 30 years, its had 10 new handles and 15 new heads' syndrome. Another benefit to ALL these projects (even those that fail) is that we maintain the skills that are rapidly dying out and also introduce younger generations into engineering and railways. Why include the failed projects? Because members of those projects will have learnt new skills and hopefully move to other projects.

    Just my tuppence worth!
    Dave
     
  10. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    If the impetus behind more of the newbuilds was "it will be useful day in, day out" rather than "Let's build a...." I would be happier. This is why the G.5 and 3MT 2-6-2T projects are the only ones which really appeal to me and, surprise, surprise they seem to be making the best progress.

    A "preserved" locomotive which burns more coal than desirable or, similarly, puts more strain on the civil engineering than would be wished can be tolerated on account of it being historical. Any newbuild should be selected on its suitability for the task in hand, principally on tourist lines, which means no coal scoffing and reasonable axle loads. We need to be aware that steam on the main line is likely to become more uncertain as every year passes on account on the technical changes on the network.

    P.H.
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    taking this a bit further. Although every new build is different, there are a series of milestones or tickboxes every one must have.

    Some of these are around project organisation:

    - Business plan with credible fundraising methodology
    - Project structure with proper oversight of key roles (engineering, finance ...)
    - An agreed construction base (quite likely, though not exclusively, a host railway)

    Some are around actually having major components

    - Frames
    - Wheels
    - Boiler
    - Cylinders
    - Motion
    - Tender (where applicable)
    - Springs
    - Brake system
    - Small components (injectors, lubricators etc)
    - etc

    It would be useful if someone prepared a table (ideally updated every few months) showing, for each project, how they had progressed against that checklist (or an emended one that others with more knowledge may care to propose).

    Firstly, that would help sort the wheat from the chaff (Facebook page? Check. Smokebox number? Check. Agreement reached on livery? Check. Anything else substantial? Er... that's it).

    Secondly it would indicate whether all the projects basically showed a spread across all stages (some, e.g. Tornado finished; others just starting, and all stages between - which would be a healthy situation), or whether actually there was a glut of projects all at basically the same stage.

    Anyone care to co-ordinate? Wasn't there a new build steam website that was trying to bring together news of all projects? Seems like it would be an ideal tool for them to monitor progress.

    Tom
     
  12. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    You mean this one? http://newbuildsteam.com/ Apart from the awful font, a well put together site which rather left my plans for something similar dead in the water, though I was intending to include a progress matrix similar to that you describe above. One other small problem for me though - I have about as much idea of how to build a website as Mr Reeder does of building J1/L39 or whatever ;)
     
  13. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Link not working Sheff.. Wrong copy and paste????
     
  14. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    Fixed - helps if you don't use cut n paste again before inserting a link!
     
  15. knotty

    knotty Member

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    @detheridge02
    I agree. To cite my own personal interest, I've became involved in a minor capacity with a project for a new-build which is at an early phase of development - a project which I think has a lot of merit in terms of scale, suitability, as a business venture and in redressing a significant gap in the ledger. The chaps behind it are mature and have already being in the planning, organising the finances, seeking partnerships and sponsorship stage for a good 3 years without making an official announcement - no website and no facebook page yet. For all the declarations of yet another so-called 'new-build' on facebook and through a new thread every other week, there are a handful of serious proposals out there, some admittedly won't come to fruition but are nonetheless serious projects with loads of passion, planning and dedication. The flippant proposals, where someone has scoured the Hornby or Bachmann catalogue are doing not only the new-build 'movement' (if it can be called that) but the entire preservation movement a grave disservice.

    So let's not tar all new-build proposals with the same broad brush. I for instance don't believe that the young lads behind the Claud Hamilton, irrespective of whether it sees the light of day, should be associated by virtue of being young with the L1, J39,V3 or whatever other proposal that's posted here by the same few individuals every other week. I think we can safely say these activities are merely attention-seeking by a small group who desperately want to be taken seriously without doing the 'hard yards'.

    @MarkinDurham
    It was a little OT I agree however I do believe that small pre-grouping tank (such as the G5) and four-coupled express engines (such as the Claud Hamilton project) , of which so few remain today are the ideal candidates for new-builds from the potential ROI in the preservation line scene, the suitability to the permanent way and running costs of preservation rail, from the novelty factor (Victorian and Edwardian style and liveries) and from the cost of construction relative to a P2 Mikado or similar. It would be nice to see someone eventually tackle a MR new-build some day, at least after a few more of the current crop such as the G5 see the light of day. One can hope!

     
  16. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    Your signanture mentions a new build George the Fifth - not one I had heard of, and your post metions a new unnanounced project. 2+2 = 5?
     
  17. knotty

    knotty Member

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    You didn't consider it could be the Caley 'Cardean'? ;)

    A LNWR George the Fifth project has been mentioned here by myself and a others some time ago, and it received a mention over a newbuildsteam.com last year. At this stage I won't say too much about it as some information not least pertaining to potential backers, supporters and partners remains sensitive and 'in negotiaton' and besides, it's not really my place to unilaterally make any declarations until those 'in the thick of it' deem the time right to make a formal announcement.

    I do understand, and I've been told that that this can be public knowledge that the chaps behind this project will have a stall at Railfest in York on the 8th,9th and 10th June and more should be made public in the coming months. I'm hoping to make it there myself.

     
  18. David Bigcheeseplant

    David Bigcheeseplant New Member

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    There was talk of the firefly trust building a broad gauge 4-4-0 tank in the future, nothing has ever been published on the web but as they have done it once and completed a working loco, I would say there is more chance of this happening than many of the other hairbrained ideas.

    David
     
  19. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    The George the Fifth was in italics along with the two other new builds that are happening :)

    Interesting to see what will come out of it. The LNWR are very poorly represented in preservation.
     
  20. knotty

    knotty Member

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    And just so no one is confused with a certain GWR 'King' class, we're talking about one of these here: GV_1489_Wolfhound.jpg

     

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