New builds - how many will ever really work?

I will say that a J39 strikes me as a worthy new-build candidate. I think it would be very suitable for heritage rail. To the lad's credit they've picked a suitable engine here. Let's see if they do learn. I agree, theres' 'no harm, no foul' if some of these proposals from youthful exuberance comes to naught. however, it was perhaps the contradictory claims by the same individuals, and the appearance of new proposals by so-called 'break-away' groups every other week; breakaways from groups that in of themselves hadn't achieved anything other than a facebook group and the need to declare each splintering; the decision on the livery etc as earth-shattering news in what was clearly a craving for attention, and a desire to be taken seriously without anything to show for it, which resulted in so much frustration and derision.

 

As I said before on another thread, if you come on here and announce a new-build scheme and then a week later announce another new-build scheme and so on because you have fallen out with the others then you aint gonna be taken seriously. If you ain't taken seriously then you are liable to have the p*ss taken out of you. This people is where forum follows life in general.

The J39 posse rocked up on here, set up a website, introduced the next big project, announced the colour and then declared it was going to be named after their dad. Then stated their newly appointed Chief Mechanical Engineer (who had 'restored Tornado!!!) had specified a copper boiler!

oh please people. Don't want flak then think about your actions and announcements. Engage brain before cakehole...

 

So you want to be taken seriously?

OK: The J39 doesn't benefit (AFAIK) from being able to use any significant "left overs" from other engines (unlike, say, a lot of the GWS projects, or Beachy Head). So you are going to have to build everything from scratch - boiler, frames, wheels, motion, the lot. That's going to take money (maybe a million or so in today's money, spread over a likely project lifetime of 10 - 20 years); engineering skill in lots of different techniques and commercial acumen to negotiate with suppliers (assuming you sub-contract a lot of the actual construction work, such as casting components, cutting frames etc etc). If you ever want to run your new toy, someone is going to have to insure it, and they are probably going to want lots of documentation about how you built, grades of steel used, processes used to maintain the integrity of components, calculations of strengths and stresses. So you had better have a compliance expert around to document everything you do and make sure it meets regulations. And as I have remarked elsewhere, being attached to an existing preserved railway or heritage centre isn't essential, but it will save you a lot in terms of access to tools, space, ability to tag along to existing charitable status for fundraising and most of all it will give you acces to a willing audience who might be interested in supporting your project.

So if you want credibility, forget Facebook; forget liveries; forget smokebox number plates, and come back and report when you have:

- A credible plan for raising, sustainably, £50k or more per year, year after year for 10 - 20 years
- Someone, or several people, on board with the engineering knowledge to build the loco, to ensure its compliance with any applicable standards, and to negotiate with suppliers; and the committment to hang around for 10 - 20 years
- An operating base in which you are going to collect the components as they arrive and erect them into the finished product.

When you come back with those, people will afford you the respect you evidently crave. But until then, I'm afraid - like it or not - you are going to struggle to be taken even remotely seriously.

Age, incidentally, isn't much to do with it, except inasmuch as this is necessarily a complex project. Nothing to say an 18 year old (or whatever) couldn't pull it off, but without experience of similar, but less complex, projects as a stepping stone, you are more likely to make more frequent, and bigger mistakes along the way. As lots of others have advised, your best bet would be to attach yourself to some group restoring an engine on an established line. After a few years of mucking in every weekend, observing how things are done, you'll have a lot more experience with which to launch this project, and at least you'll be going into it eyes wide open. But at the moment, from what I have seen, if you handed round the begging bowl right now, I for one would be keeping my wallet tight shut.

Tom

 

Tom, you have replied to me as if I am a part of the J39 group? I would like to reiterate that I am NOT involved in any way with that particular group. I did try to help them once but was rebuffed most rudely so withdrew my offer of help.

I do have experience in heritage railways, and am not a child, I am in fact in my mid 40's!!

 

My apologies, you can take my comments as directed at whoever does constitute the J39 group - or indeed the L1 group, the V3 group, or any of the others...

As I said, age is irrelevant, what matters is experience...

Tom

 

We can agree to disagree but the truth of the matter is there isn't a whole heap of tolerance on here after the multitude of postings that have been made by people who purport to be a 'board' level within these organisations.

People's front of Judea??? NAH splitter - get him! We are the People's Judean Front!

How very apt for this time of year...

Out there are some good schemes. All these dipsticks with there Hornby catalogues make it harder to see the wood from the trees. This will result in what could be a viable project not getting supported. Worse still if people do put money and time into these project of the week schemes they will lose everything they put in when it fails. Hardly going to make the same mistake twice are they?

 

All,

Just a note the j39 thread is reopened. Please avoid targeting specific individuals because of their age etc.. Bullying isn't tolerated.

On a side note, many years ago before the Internet and Facebook, anyone creating a restoration group under the age of 21 would be under the radar, and much of the school boy stuff unseen. Its hard to look an idiot when your front page was a column in Railway Magazine and a PO box in 196x. However one of the things about being young is making mistakes and learning from it. It is somewhat harder today to be young in a much more public eye. The older ones should recognise this and maybe offer advice rather than strike them down... After all you've been there done it and know what the Internet is capable of.

Many locomotives in preservation were not the ones expected at the outset of a group.. Many likely to be the result of youthful hope over reality. Whether its a J39 that becomes a W1 in 20 years times is irrelevant if we scare the group away from the hobby and into computer games, girls or whatever else surrounds a teenager. The future result may be the youth recognising the scrap value of dad's old engine and selling it to pay for a new computer, luxury holiday or whatever... Instead of being proactively involved due to being chased away at a youthful age by a bunch of moaning men on an Internet forum.

 

They have been offered sensible advice on how to be taken seriously and get their project on a better footing on several occassions, but have chosen not to take that advice.


Keith

 

In fairness, though, it was only really one person making a fool of himself. (do i need name him?)

The damage done to the newbuild front remains to be seen, although since these engines don't yet exist, no one's really lost anything

 

How old were the founders of the GWS?

There is only one thing needed to get a new build started, enthusiasm and experience...
No, there are only two things needed to get a new build started, enthusiasm, experience and age...
No, no, no there are only three things needed to get a new build started, enthusiasm, experience, age and knowledgeable support....
No, no, no there are but four things needed to get a new build started, enthusiasm, experience, age, knowledgeable support and a lot of money....
No, no, no there are just five things needed to get a new build started, enthusiasm, experience, age, knowledgeable support, a lot of money and some luck....
No, no, no, no, no..... Cardinal Fang, what is the thing needed for a new build?

Foxy

 

Inevitably, most posts are now retracing old ground. Let me do the same!

Like you, I felt the "copper boiler" business said all that we needed to know about the J39 project. However, whether or not the proposal was likely to succeed in the hands of its rather over youthful supporters, it was at least a sensible choice of prototype. Dare it be said this is more than is the case with some of the schemes backed by more mature people and which stand a fair chance of completion.

In the latter category come, pace Maunsell Man, your favoured H2 Atlantic, the B17s, Hengist, the 47xxx etc., etc.

 

Trouble is, unless one goes back to Dean or the Armstrongs, or have a go at one of Churchward's les stellar efforts, the options open for GWR conversions are distinctly limited...
lets think,
you could take the auto gear off a 64, and alter the cab sides slightly and call it a 74...
or even put larger wheels on and have a 54.
Then a new set of frames and wheels could make a 44 from a 45
smaller wheels on a 51 would make an 81,
or if you really wanted to go to town then a 42 boiler on a 51 would make a 3150, or with smaller wheels a 3100...

Not really especially inspiring options are they? Everything else is there really (and why anyone should want to create a County or County tank is beyond me...)

Although I do think a 4400 would be a useful bit of kit for a 25mph line, its hard to think it would be that much better than a 45.

 

Aberdare for me please Jim Would you like me to specify livery now or after I've ordered a numberplate?

 

Because they enjoy being seasick? uke:

Foxy

 

Why would you need to specify a livery or order a numberplate?

Oh, I get it!!! you are having a pop at other new build groups? despite all that has been said today about having a pop and a go,you have come on tonight with a little tongue in cheek remark yes? hmmmm....

 

Touchy!

And before you ask, I'm 22.

 

??????what has your age got to do with it?!!! I was asking why you needed to pick a livery and number first?

I am not touchy at all, I am just fed up with people having a go at others that is all.

 

With respect Knotty, I understand what you are saying but I simply don't think that's the case. A few Facebook groups, relatively unknown in the railway world, let alone the general population's perception of "new build" projects isn't going to make someone say of the Patriot group, for example, "they're a bunch of dreamers and will never get it finished", and I think had this happened when the Patriot Project originally started, as an example, it wouldn't have made any difference then either.

The point is that people will find things to get worked up about, and then blow them out of all proportion. I've felt some disdain for the dismissive attitudes and vast amount of put downs, because its the enthusiasm for railways in this country we should be channeling, not decrying because on this occasion, one person has made some silly choices.

I think if the one person could be talked with, not on an open forum, but invited to come and see a new build project and what in an engineering sense takes to go into it; was helped to understand this and the graft behind that too, then we may find that this individual would be wiser, but still retaining the interest and enthusiasm for going ahead and doing a project such as this - or helping out, crucially, with an existing one - in a manner more conducive to results.

That would be preferable for me. Encouraging the enthusiasm, helping them find their way and all in the name of railway preservation in this country.

The younger generation are the future, like it or not, and I can't help but feel that their sometimes superior understanding of social networking sites, communications technology and similar should be tapped into as well as keeping the traditional skills of railway preservation alive.

You're right there. Must say it is a very handsome, well built beast that.

 

I was referencing my age before you suggested that I was an old cynic belittling the efforts of 'young'uns', as you have earlier:

Mark, I was having a laugh, not 'having a go'. It's a subtle difference I'll admit and one that can be lost in text rather than in speech, but rest assured that is what I was doing.