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BR Standard class 6 No. 72010 'Hengist' and Clan Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Bulleid Pacific, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. Big Dave

    Big Dave Member

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    Some interesting thoughts here.
    The 71000 cam box issue has been brought up here OK so what if a walshaerts loco breaks a significant part of it's valve gear, same problem.
    Caprotti more expensive? OK fair enough but Caprotti has been proven to be sinificantly cheaper on maintenance in the long run as it doesn't wear as much.
    Comparing poppet valves to piston valves is a bit like comparing poppit valves to sleeve valves on old ic engines.
    As I understand it British Caprotti is very similar in it's operation to the latest vvt ic engines.
    This could be better discussed on it's own forum if the modfs agree.
    It would be nice to here from practical engineers from the 71000 trust but there can be no doubt that the Duke is a very fine engine indeed probably the best ever made by BR.
    There I've thrown my hat into the ring lets discuss it.

    Cheers Dave
     
  2. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    Judging by the amount of time 71000 spends down due to valve gear issues - and that is in no way meant as a criticism of the 71000 guys - I would imagine that severe failures of walschart are rarer, in part due to the heavier nature of the mechanism, in part due to the relative simplicity.

    I would guess that the amount of time in use and wear that a locomotive gets these days would render the maintenance savings of caprotti negligible.

    I am not denying that caprotti is the better valve gear in terms of 'doing the job' - just that the advantages of walschaert in terms of simplicity, reliability and ease of use probably outweigh it in a simple head to head taking into account the amount of money and effort that can be thrown at a loco these days - and that is without taking 'authenticity' (usual caveats applied) into the equation.

    I should add that loco maintenance and operation are not my specific area of interest so my comments can only be judged as those of an interested amateur rather than those of an experienced expert.
     
  3. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    I brought this subject onto this thread as of all the remaining UK locos likely to be built/ restored there are very few with a historical reason for being Caprotti fitted.

    72010 ? - althoughs its actually quite unlikely that 72010 Hengist would have been so fitted as it had its frames already cut otherwise, its likely that any later Clans/Brits would have been
    One of the remaining Black 5's ? - Perhaps to differentiate one of these remaining slow burner restorations an Ivatt spec caprotti 5 rebuild is worthy of consideration
    2007(P2)- As the Original Lentz gear failed to deliver BR Caprotti would allow this design to realise its massive potential
    9F - an order was costed for Caprotti 9F's but this is quite tenuous - and a waste of perfectly good cylinders
    Super Merchant...Bullied had definitely considered piston valves and a propeller shaft, and it might actually be easier if restoring a Merchant navy to Airsmoothed appearance to consider this instead of the chain drive, but again it means ignoring available components, probably one of the reasons (cost !) why the rebuilds were sooo conventional

    I have had lots of feedback along the lines of Guard Jamie arguments and, whether i like it or not it does make perfect sense.
    So perhaps best to consign the Caprotti Clan to the Fantasy league alongside the Caprotti Brit. and the Caprotti Riddles 2-8-2

    What i was also after was how many exponents of BR Caprotti like me and Big Dave are out there: perhaps a thread for Caprottiphiles is a good idea but unless one of us becomes super-rich ?...
    One of the reasons for liking the B.R Caprotti Gear is that it was an ok idea that we, the Brits made a decent fist of and made it work well and for that reason its something to shout about... and then theres that great noise...
    Time to leave this thread to normal Clan stuff.
     
  4. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    Suggest you start a Caprotti thread in the MIC forum? I'd be interested.
     
  5. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    As would I. Caprotti is a black art to me and I am keen to learn more, despite my apparent 'coolness' to the concept above! It would be quite fun to fit it to a miniature loco - 15" or so - along with GPCS, Porta Water, Lempor...
     
  6. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    Porta maintained to the end that Caprotti gear was not heavy duty equipment and as such was not suitable for railway service. His own designs of valves have shown themselves to be capable of tens of thousands of kilometres of service without leakage. Leakage is a huge issue for many poppet valve designs and was one of the reasons Chapelon reverted to piston valves.
     
  7. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Far as im aware from Wardale and others comments on the subject, leakage is not such an issue with BR Caprotti, and as far as im aware its a relatively robust gear. In this respect its probably the pinnacle of steam poppet valve development whereas, thanks to Porta and co., piston valve gear has been continuously improved to a be a much better gear than that which the BR Standards enjoyed....

    Mods, want to pin these last three to the thread in MIC for me
     
  8. OldChap

    OldChap Member

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    As far as I know the following BR standards are without a tender:

    73156, 75079, 76077, 92134, 92207, 92219, 92245

    Some of the above may have parts already (for example 75079 has wheel sets made I believe) but none has a complete tender. 73096 has a BR1G style tank on a LMS chassis (which to me looks awfuly and if you assume that this loco has a future on the main line once released form the MHR so a better tender would be a boon) and if you assume that will be built then 72010 has no tender also; a therietical total of nine is required.

    The BR1F tender was, as far as I am aware, only fitted to batches of 9F's and one batch of SR std 5's, I have seen a photo of 75075 (or was it 75077?) fitted with a BR1F from a SR 5 in the last few weeks of it's service.

    So if a batch of tenders were built for all remaining and planned locomotives then the most reasonable design that all types would have used would be the BR1B/C.
    73096 originally had a 1C,73156 & 75079 1B's.
    76077 a 2A but the SR example had 1B's so perhaps as we have 76017, 79 and 84 with 2A's already 76077 would be a good candiate for a 1B.
    92134 had a 1C originally and 92207,219 and 245 all had 1G's but as a class did have 1C types.
    72010 if built in the 1950's would had a 1C.

    The only other type that would be a good fit would be the BR 1D type with coal pushers... the 6000 gallon type was aun built version originally designed for the cancelled allocation of a batch of new 9F's for the SR. This tender was 2ft longer and resembled a big BR1G type.

    I personally would love to see 76077 with a BR 1B, the high sideed tenders I think really add to the look of the BR standards.
     
  9. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    I too think that the Br 1 c/d looks fine, but theres a lot of unneccessary coal space.
     
  10. northernsteam

    northernsteam Member

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    Following Tornados example, and common sense, it would seem reasonable for any mainline Standards to use the max capacity tender they can get away with.
    So whilst the 72010 would have had a 1C, the larger water capacity model would be more appropriate now so that would be a 1 F with water scoop etc omitted and other internal work done.

    However, we are not quite at that stage, unless someone has £100k spare to build one, at present we need the frame stretchers!
    There is 92212 running around with one on Mid Hants, I wonder if they would like to do a deal? (tongue firmly in cheek)
     
  11. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Surprised if 70000, 70013 or more recently West coast (with 74067) havent already knocked on that door, but if you have the sole surviving 1F tender you might be ultra careful about what happens with it...
     
  12. northernsteam

    northernsteam Member

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    I am aware that there have been comments that this project does not seem to be progressing very quickly. I can only comment on the situation since May 2011 when the new team took over but here is the current build situation.
    We have 90% of the cab ready to fit to a boiler and frames, we have the smokebox barrel, door and other parts ready almost to fit to the frames and boiler, we have the frame plates and the majority of the stretchers. What we are missing are the 3 cast steel stretchers to allow us to erect the frames. They are expensive, I believe 148 other engines had them of which only 3 9F's and 71000 survive. We hope to let the contract before too long to an engineering company to do that erection work.
    If you can be patient another 1-2 years, yes, it takes that long, you should see real progress with this project.
    We do appreciate all the support we have been ,and are, receiving.
    We are not functioning 100% yet and still have niggles in the system but we are trying to get everything working, admin-wise, asap.
    We have a myriad of parts, big and small, in various locations; if we gather them all together we would need a big space, scattered they are not so demanding of space. It is a juggling act.
    I hope this settles some doubts out there.
     
  13. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    I think the problem lies in the fact that many of the current 'new-build' projects are using parts already available, and thus appear to be progressing quickly. As such, there may be a lack of realisation that this is indeed a bottom-up, start from scratch project. I'm still intending to pay my membership fee, but I'll have to wait until next month due to car-related costs (its only a year old, but they still managed to charge £106 for my service!). For now, and for what its worth, I'll quote the Duke of Wellington and say that I can '...only give the project my best wishes' for the moment.
     
  14. hengist Builder

    hengist Builder New Member Loco Owner

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    For the information of any members who may not be aware, there will be a working party at Shillingstone on the North Dorset railway over the weekend of 24/25th March. The container of parts will be opened, and emptied, the container re-sited and some of the contents, along with the cab structure and the bogie plate frames will be relocated to safe, dry storage at a different venue. It is hoped that the cab can be refurbished at its new home after being outside in all weathers for the last 5 years, prior to eventual fitment to the frame structure. Anyone who is free to help out will be most welcome to assist the working party. Three members of the council of management will be in attendance, getting their hands dirty. Please feel free to come along and make yourselves known.
     
  15. DL-J

    DL-J New Member

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    Teas, coffees, hot sausage rolls and pasties(as well as the usual warm welcome) will be available in the Shillingstone Cafe. Pop in, say "Hi" and warm yourselves by the open fire. Be great to see you all.
     
  16. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. I have a feeling that this project is about to move up a gear. Whilst I am unable to assist in the financing of it myself due to involvement with 2 other new builds and a GWR old build (2807!) I do wish this project every success in its future. Looking at the Hengist website, much work has been done already over the years and the future, dare we hope, now looks brighter.
     
  17. detheridge02

    detheridge02 New Member

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    DL-J, hot sausage rolls? I'll be in several times!
    The project is indeed ramping up. Watch this space!
     
  18. hengist Builder

    hengist Builder New Member Loco Owner

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    If anyone wants a chat about the latest news/developments, come along and have a chat at the GCR 60's gala over the weekend. Look forward to seeing you there...
     
  19. DL-J

    DL-J New Member

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    Sorry there wasn't an open fire but it was too hot last weekend. It was great to meet the Hengist crew and sad to see the cab going - even if it was for all the right reasons.
    Good luck with the project.
     
  20. hengist Builder

    hengist Builder New Member Loco Owner

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    Sales team will be at Barrow Hill for all three days of the Gala. Why not come along and have a chat?
     

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