Schools Class "Cheltenham"

Personally I think the wartime black is rather stylish; I think it's a shame more Southern engines haven't carried it in preservation. I know livery is subjective, but the best way to keep everyone happy is to carry a variety of liveries, with relatively frequent changes. So, although Brunswick green does suit 30777, I'm looking forward to seeing her in Malachite for a change.

 

Were the USA tanks painted in a Southern livery other than wartime black? Several classes were painted unlined black from their build to nationalisation (when 'Southern' was painted over and replaced by a lion). So why is southern unlined black any worse than unlined BR black?

 

I never said that Southern unlined black was worse than unlined BR black, but personally, I do find such liveries rather dull. I don't think the USAs were painted in any other Southern livery except unlined black, although when they first arrived, they were in grey WD livery (as currently carried by the Bluebell's USA tank), which in my opinion looks even worse. For some engines, including the Q1, their entire working lives were spent in unlined black, so there isn't much choice here.

The word "Southern" on the Bulleid scheme was referred to as "Sunshine" lettering, and when applied to Malachite-liveried Blackmoor Vale, it somehow epitomises the return of holidays in the "sunny South" and the beginning of national recovery after the grim years of wartime. Just think of those Treacy photographs of the Golden Arrow and Kent Coast expresses taken on Grosveor Bank circa 1946. They seem to exude a sense of hope for the future. However, somehow, the same lettering when applied to the non-Bulleid designs, whether black or malachite green, suggests grim austerity and the dark years of the Second World War - a period which, not withstanding the heroism of our armed forces (and railwaymen for that matter) most of those who lived through it would rather forget.

 

For me, since I'm not old enough to remember the original liveries, the correct livery of an engine is the one that I've grown up seeing it in, obvious examples 4472 Apple Green, DofH & Lizzy in LMS Maroon, DofG BR Green, SNG Garter Blue, 850 Malachite Green & so on. In my view any change of livery on these engines is wrong, but that's just my opinion & that's all it is. Where we have a few locos of the same or similar class, then it would be good to have a spread of liveries amongst them e.g. Bittern, especially where they have an owner who can afford & is willing to change the livery every few years.

An off topic moment - whilst looking at a pic of 30777 (which does suit BR Green), I came across the Tyseley loco works site. I now know where F1 got their shark fin idea from & wing end plates. Another pic here.

 

Interesting post. This does rather prove the point that the preservation movement really ought to ensure that all historically correct liveries are given fair representation. Otherwise people like sweetktg will assume that, for example, the only correct livery for a black five is BR black and LMS livery is incorrect.

 

Feel free to disagree as long as you realise that you are wrong.
Variety is the spice of life and 777 has had long spells in both SR olive and BR green so a change won't hurt.

 

I must say that I do look forward to seeing Sir Lamiel in Southern green as well as Cheltenham and that's coming from a BR livery fan. However when paired with BR era Mk1 carriages which unfortunately the Mid-Hants only have at this time, it's just not going to be too appealing to me. Now get those two locos on the Bluebell with their superb Maunsell carriages, or if some wealthy chap could pay for the transportation costs to get them on the Mid-Hants for their gala, then we'd have a stunning combination.

In terms of the Malachite livery, were there two forms of this livery? I only ask as if you look at Stowe on the Bluebell which is currently in Malachite, the lining around the loco is white/black with Bulleid sunshine yellow lettering. Yet when you look at Lord Nelson and Cheltenham's livery it seems it's a rather darker shade of green with yellow/black lining and also 850 doesn't have the Bulleid sunshine yellow lettering.

 

Perhaps that's because 850 isn't in Bulleid malachite but an interim green. I'm sure I've read somewhere that it's called Parson's Green.

 

Exactly. I'm afraid I do think that the only correct livery for a Black 5 is black, but I have seen the picture of 44932 in BR Green & it looks ok - now that we have a good selection of Black 5's running again then this would be one of those situations where maybe 44932 should be green again. I also think that when Galatea finally puts in an appearance it too should be in BR Green since we already have Jubliees in LMS Crimson Lake. I have been educated though, I used to think that the correct livery for 46441 was that maroon!

 

Yes that's what I'm sure I'd read on here before some year's ago when Nelson's livery was being debated after she'd been brought back to steam. However looking at the colour-rail photo in the beano of no.774, that does have Bulleid style lettering on but with the yellow/black lining and looking at a couple of photos I took at the NRM before Cheltenham was moved to Eastleigh she is also in the same condition. Yet Stowe's Malachite livery is noticeably different to that of Cheltenham and I guess 30777 when she's repainted to match that of no.774

Not trying to be too "rivet counting" or "paint frothing" on this, just genuinely curious of what seems to be two different versions of Malachite green livery.

 

This Southern green livery topic gets more complicated the more you read in to it - look at this (scroll down to the bottom).

 

Not quite what I meant. Black fives only ran in black. There were a few cases of unusual liveries in the early days of preservation, including 45212 in wallpaper, but they're not authentic. My point was more that all of the current operational black fives have BR numbers and BR crests. None have LMS numbers and "LMS" on the tender.

 

Thanks for this. Looks like 850 isn't in Parsons Green but the later, short lived sage green. As you say, it's complicated.

 

I hear 925 Cheltenham will be lined out in white. I'm looking forward to see 925 and 850 double heading together up Medstead bank. With any luck both locos will return smoke box out of Alresford.

 

850 would have to be turned first but I do like the locos facing London as Calbourne did at the Weekend and would match 31806 which faces London as well.

I can't wait to see Cheltenham at Railfest then at the Autumn Gala. Somewhere I have photos of my 7 year old self pretending to drive her at the NRM.

Thats the thing that annoys me about the Black 5's at the moment is that there are so many in steam yet not one is in LMS liviery other than 5000 (on static display) and 5025 (undergoing/awaiting overhaul). I heard that was the plan for 45337 but nothing seems to have materialised.

 

Don't forget 850 is also going to Railfest and could be off loaded at Alresford facing out of Alresford on her return.

 

Is it? Not heard that.

 

I've just looked at the line up of locos for Railfest and it isn't there. My mistake

 

Seeing 850 as 30850 in BR green would be nice, it's never happened in preservation and this is probably its final years as an operational locomotive.

 

It would be nice to see it happen. Hopefully it will. Green Arrow was changed around in its final 2 years or so. 3440/3717 has also been fiddled around (still no BR black though).