VT - 5043 to Edinburgh - 26/27/28 May

The fact is that Network Rail's main issue with steam traction is the risk of lineside fires. They acknowledge that steam has a place on the network and that mainline certified locos are mechanically maintained to the highest standards. However, the risk of fire remains, chiefly due to the fact that the lineside vegitation is no longer kept in check. It doesn't need to be for modern traction. (Modern meaning post 1968) The brambles and gorse bushes (highly combustible in dry weather) can grow as much as they like because the cost of keeping them knocked back cannot be justified, in the same way as the infrastructure for keeping steam locos routinely coaled and watered has disappeared.
Steam enthusiasts must accept that there has to and will be diesel assistance during dry spells. Like it or not. I personally don't like it as I have a vested interest in steam engine drivers evaporating as much water as they can. (Gordon Hodgson is my personal hero)
WCR Ops Manager, Peter Walker did very well to persuade NR not to have the 47 in FRONT of the Castle over Beattock yesterday evening, and had to give his personal assurance that there would be no fires. There were'nt and a GWR Castle Class made it to Edinburgh. Hey, glass half full!

 

A change of heart then?

"...if the spark arrestor is not up to scratch, take the steam loco off the list. In steam days, spark arrestors were fitted around industrial areas where sparks were a danger with perfect success".

Weirdly for an organisation being accused of ruining people's day out in some elaborate conspiracy attempt to drive steam off the mainline, i see no suggestion they followed your advice and banned her for starting a lineside fire. In fact it seems the only cost for allowing her over one of the most congested sections of the network days after another charter caused multple lineside fires in the same conditions was diesel assistance over the section at highest risk.

Chris

 

Thank you Pete - NR & WCRC made the right call yesterday. People have to consider that there is more happening on the mainline than just steam charters running on busy mainlines. Sometimes there has to be a compromise made in the name of the 'bigger picture' which might mean putting diesels on charters so that the potential disruption is minimised to people travelling on Virgin Trains, TPE, Cross Country or freight operators working to tight deadlines. Remember that the knock-on effect of a disruption is never just limited to the area in which it actually happens, it will ripple across the area and affect much more than you think.

I'm not really sure what VT or WCRC could really have done to alter this. The weather is the weather. Those who wish to rant about this and blame NR for it being sunny are seriously deluded.

 

Well indeed obviously the Duchass was out as well yesturday and as far as i am aware didnt cause any problems.

The Fire that was near to me resulted in the attendance of the fire brigade and a network rail guy, trains were kept running under caution but obviuoly caused some delay.

 

I notice those banging on about the bigger picture are not on the tour, normally I might be agreeing with you, but its funny how your opinion changes after paying hundreds of pounds for that, its bad enough when it happens on an 80 quid day tour, but for 300 quid its not acceptable, you cant just ignore the passengers point of view, that's a sure fire way to kill off mainline steam, I'm booked on one other steam tour after this, it will be a very long time before I book another until people start providing what youve actually paid for, any other profession and you'd have a case under the trade descriptions act.

And yes NR are totally to blame, bitterns fire was earlier in the week so they had a few days to inform VT it would be diesel hauled with 5043 as a showpony, but the first we knew about that was on leaving crewe!, also if network rail got the rulings sorted in good time, VT could of put in a diesel leg to carnforth and got us into edinburgh at a reasonable hour, but they left it till 3 days beforehand.

It's not the decisions NR made, but the far too long lengt of time they took to make them, too late for anyone to cancel and too late for VT and WCRC to rework it into something more acceptable, NR are far from blameless and trying to hide and call them on the day problems when they knew about them days in advance is unacceptable.

 

rulings I mean timings, still on phone with predictive text!.

 

Taken from Salterwath ,

GWR 5043 Salterwath | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

Sorry Neil, your argument simply does not stand up! For all the reasons you stated for the need for diesel assistance for the Castle you failed to make any reference at all to the 46233 proceeding without assistance over Shap out and back. What sector of NR agreed no diesel for the Duchess and but deemed it necessary for the Castle?

Are all railtours in the UK planned for the next week during this hot spell, going to have a diesel too due to fire risk. OF COURSE NOT.

As I posted before, if the spark arrestor is doing its job, the risk is virtually eliminated. As a former railwayman, I know that lineside fires do happen and happens with modern traction too. Are you going to suggest a solution to overcome this.

Why does steam always have to take the brunt of the beating?

NR do not come out of this with any credit I am afraid. Late notifications of timings, inconsistency with what train should and should not have diesel assistance for fire risk, looping the Castle for example at Abington and held to booked time despite the preceeding train having passed 20 minutes before - you only have to read David1984 posting to have great sympathy for the passengers.

We all thought Railtrack were pretty inept but NR have simply carried on where they left off and seem to be a darned sight worse.

 

Ok my comment might have been slightly tongue in cheek, but the fact is the duchess had passed earlier without a problem, the picture shows the fire which was still going about 30mins after the castle had passed before the fire brigade arrived, there was also one further up not in the picture but that didnt take hold and seemed to go out after a short period.

I left about 2 hours after the castle had passed the fire brigade were still damping down.

 

I don't really see your point here. Neither loco had diesel assistance for the climb of Shap. The box was on the back of 5043's train but according to several sources was not assisting. The diesel pilot was "required" for the climb of Beattock in NR's view. The Duchess was going nowhere near Beattock. So they clearly fulfill different criteria as tours..

Besides all that, The Duchess is a class 8 compared to the Castle's 7. Both had trains of similar length and weight, ergo the Castle would presumably have been marginally more stretched and so more of a risk. No? I'm not defending NR, I think they've handled this tour, VT and WCRC abysmally right from the start, but the diesel assistance was probably the right way to go, even if they handled it equally as ineptly.

 

How different do you think you can operate a castle or a duchess in these conditions, over that road and not put delay minutes into other traffic.? I'd put my money on being able to operate the duchess (the horse for the course) more sympathetically and get away with it.

Are you sure about that.? I wouldn't mind betting they read these forums.

What is the highest temperature a piece of ash can be before it doesn't set something alight.? What temperature is it at when it hit's the deck out of a chimney.? (I don't know)

When you get a job in the NR planning department perhaps you can let us know. Otherwise you continue to sound like a stuck record.
What percentage of all the train movements in the UK do you think steam charters make up.? 0.001% maybe.? I don't think these planning folks or gauging folks sit around all day waiting for the next charter to pop into the system.
There is room for improvement and there are people in the movement working constructively with NR to get improvements. I'm sure your armchair whining isn't helping a great deal.

 

The steam-hating Network Rail allowed both loco's over Shap without assistance - the resultant lineside fire by 5043 proving beyond doubt the need for a diesel over Beattock, and perhaps explaining why your description of spark arrestors achieving "perfect success" at preventing sparks has changed to "virtually eliminating" them in the space of 24 hours...

The policy is to decide on a case-by-case basis, most people would think that's a good thing!

Seriously? The idea that coal burning steam loco's are a relatively high fire risk, especially when pulling heavy loads over steep gradients, is probably one of the least controversial arguments imaginable - especially after lineside fires on Shap, Beattock and the WHL in the current weather.

Chris

 

Thanks for the correction Ralph, though if anything it only proves my point - even with a diesel providing *some* assistance 5043 still managed to set fire to the scenery, fully vindicating NR's decision.

Chris

 

Iv'e got to pass comment on those who say in BR days spark arresters worked, rubbish!

When I was much younger I lived close to the Berkeswell loop. On weekdays a Manchester/Liverpool express from Rugby was always routed via Leamington Spa Avenue Kenilworth and back onto the main line at Berkeswell.

This line had a speed restricted 90 degree curve onto a fairly long 1 in 90 incline so hard work with a big train.

This train was a Crewe works running in turn so could be anything from 2 ex works 5's a 5 and a Jubilee the Scots and Brits would be solo, in dry weather this train always cause fire in the cutting leading to Burton Green with the fire brigade attending.

Cheers Dave

 

None of those classes of loco mentioned by you were ever fitted with spark arresters in BR day. Self cleaning smokeboxes, yes, but not spark arresters. As the poster says, the only BR locos fitted with spark arresters were those that worked on certain industrial sites.

 

Well it's very hot in Fife today, and reports of 47 doing most of the work. Will confirm once past Cowdenbeath