BR Standard class 6 No. 72010 'Hengist' and Clan Discussion Thread

Where has it gone to? Have they got a permanent location yet?

 

Gone to Nemesis Rail, Burton on Trent. No final decision on a permanent home yet, but negotiations are on going and we hope to make an announcement on a "Home for Hengist" in the near future.

 

Sales team will be at the GCR all three days of the Wartime Weekend. See you there...

 

Would it not be best to try to build this in Scotland? You know really being a Scottish engine and that... Try to play on the whole Scottish, braveheart, bagpipes, mountains, midges, beautiful redhaired maidens, slightly scary looking large bearded blokes wearing checked skirts with a big knife in their socks and no underpants on (but are actually quite friendly) sort of thing?

 

Current team managing the project cover a wide geographical spread. Chairman is based in Tyne and Wear, Engineering team and sales group mostly in the midlands/Yorkshire, the treasurer is from the Bristol area, the membership secretary is from South Wales..... and the cylinder patterns are being made for us in Scotland I believe. So we have no bias towards any particular location, just what is going to be in the best interests of the project as a whole as the locomotive is assembled. Hope to have news on the exact location for a Home for Hengist at the end of this month or the beginning of July, so watch this space for news as it happens.

 

Because you're not making much progress and I actually have doubts that this project will be completed at all in its present state.

Most of the projects that are going places start off with a question. "We need suitable motive power for this particular task (usually a preserved line but in the case of Tornado mainline running), we're also looking to fill a particular historical gap...", then decide on what suitable design they need. With preserved lines the build location is usually fairly obvious, and the backers will tend to be supporters of that railway.

This project seems to have started with a question (we want to build a Clan Class engine to fill a gap, and because it's big, and because we want to build the 1000th BR standard.). Little consideration seems to have been given to (a) how easy the design is to build or (b) how useful it will be when completed. With regards to (a) the engine is rather large; a big pacific, this makes it harder and costlier to build than a smaller engine. How useful will it be? Mainline operators usually like the bigger the better, so class 8 rather than class 6. And generally I don't think there's a shortage of mainline engines. On the other hand, preserved lines like class 2-4 (and there is a definite shortage of suitable engines). Clans don't have the best reputation of engines. In other words, the Clan design is too big for preserved lines, too big to be built easily, but too small to really be of use on the mainline, and even if it is built, there are questions over whether it will do a job properly.

In terms of history, the class wasn't numerous or widespread, certainly not in the South of England where you're trying to build/run it. So it's not locally relevant, not nostalgic for those who do remember steam in the south. This project should have had alarm bells ringing all over it from before the start.

You've then tried to make a start, with these questions over your head, but all you've managed so far is to get a container together and make some cab sides, and then fallen out with the landlord.

It definitely won't be the 1000th std because 82045 will get their first, and at this rate they may well follow it up with 82046, 82047 and 77020 before you've got your frames cut.

If you are to succeed, I think you need a major relaunch of the project along the following lines:

Building a Scottish Clan.

Don't build Hengist, build one numbered between 72015-72021 Clan Whatever, even one of the originals 72000-9, but choose a name with trying to get money out of people. The name actually means something and is related to the real engines. The names of the originals also reflected their geography, and this is important too. It'll be a Clan, with a Clan name, running in appropriate geography. Everything ties together. Find some Scottish-American businessman called Whatever with money to splash and name it after his brethren.

Get a Scottish base. It doesn't have to be an existing preservation centre, it could even be on an industrial estate somewhere with no rail access. Get the Scottish government on side (engineering apprenticeships). Get Scottish celebrities and newspapers on side. Call it "Scotland's Tornado". Put lots of saltires on your website and have lots ready for the sales stand.

I think a Clan will just about go over the West Highland line. So there's your raison d'etre: Clan Whatever will do the Jacobite summer runs when available, plus the occasional tour of other lines.

But the most important thing is managing people, and your core leadership team need to realise that they have a problem, then they need to implement the above solution. Tornado has a plaque on the side that says "this engine was built by enthusiasts who had an idea and stuck with it" or something or that gist, but it perhaps should say "this engine was build by enthusiasts who had an idea and then managed it properly". Forget "none of us lives in Scotland"; either move or find people who are in Scotland. Run the project properly and it will attract the right people.

 

Main Frames of New Build Steam Locomotive 'Hengist'
The above link shows that 72010's frames already exist. The Hengist website also shows that rather more of this new-build exists than TonyMay's previous post implies, but clearly not as a recognisable locomotive to the casual observer, yet. However, having read TonyMay's post, I believe he has made a number of constructive suggestions which the Hengist Team may wish to consider. The post has a critical edge to it but criticism can be constructive. I believe that, apart from the BR 77xxx class (which might or could well be a future spin-off from the 82045 project sometime) the 72xxx class is the only BR standard loco which does yet exist, so it would complete the BR standard "set" so to speak. However, given that 72010's frames already exist I guess the argument may be more in favour of 77020 to "complete the set!" In any event, the Hengist Team may do worse than to study the suggestions made by the previous poster.

 

Whilst, as you attest, the frame plates exist; convention has it that a locomotive comes into existence once the frame plates are united with stretchers. I.e. 45550 and 82045

 

The project has effectively had to restart itself following the departure of the previous Chairman (who I believe also occupied other key positions). Luckily, there were some people out there who cared enough to take on the job and attempt to move things forward. At the end of the day, these things take time. If it takes 15 or 50 years to complete, the final outcome will make it all seem worthwhile. From my point of view, the project appeals as it will end up as an engine that would have been allocated to the Southern if built. It would have had less appeal if it was named after a 'Clan' from some distant part of Britain, showing that the issue of 'who is it for and what does it represent?' is merely playing swings and roundabouts. There are good arguments for both viewpoints.

The main problem with dismissing the prototypes as a failure is that they were never really used on the services they were built for: ie. as many coaches over steeply graded, yet weight-restricted routes as possible. They were only used on their intended West Highland route once, and fell foul of a steel shortage and the subsequent Modernisation Plan, which reduced them to unwelcome novelty status amongst crews. Otherwise, they might have been to the Britannias what the Light Pacifics were to the MNs.

 

Not quite - the 84xxx series is also missing in preservation, though that gap is being plugged at the Bluebell, where, amongst other things, the frames now exist. Of the BR standards, I believe the 77xxx is the only class of which none was preserved and for which there is no current new build / conversion project to fill the gap.

Sorry for the interuption - back to Hengist....

Tom

 

The clan has the same TE as an west country so whatever Tangmere ca do Hengist would be able to do and with Braunton about to return to the mainline there is a place for her. And can more helpful suggestions be made than reinventing the whole new build and arguing weather its a locomotive yet. Firstly the group needs a home so if you have a mate or a mate of a mate who has or knows someone who owns an industrial unit and is will to rent it out for 10-15 years to the group for them to get all the bits they have together and start putting stuff together. Or volunteer and offer your services to the project or make an donation. All the project needs is people, money and good strong management the sooner this is all in place the sooner we will have an engine.
thanks
Patrick

 

I knew that! Honest, I knew that because I've seen the extension rear end thingy on the Bluebell Website.

 

84030 will be a rebuild of 78059 though.

 

I knew that too! 78059 was purchased by the Bluebell Railway without a tender and, because the 78xxxs weren't allocated to the area including the Bluebell but 84xxxs were, it was decided that the restoration team would go for a rebuild, at least that's what the Bluebell Railway website says. To me, the 84xxxs look almost identical to the earlier Ivatts but I'm sure there are differences - but I'll admit not to knowing what they are!

 

Well, they look different, for starters...

 

Sorry, I must be getting mixed up, I meant the Ivatt 2-6-2Ts, they look identical to an 84xxx to me. I would be interested in knowing what the differences are. I believe the BR 2-6-2Ts were a little heavier.

 

Although the BR Std 2MT is very similar, there are quite a few differences. The front of the footplate; the boiler feed and the different bunker layout are three that spring immediately to mind.

 

Pretty damn close in appearance before you start looking at the smaller details.

http://www.modelrailforum.com/images/Bachmann/82xxx-1.jpg

Ivatt Tank No. 41241, | Flickr - Photo Sharing!