LNWR George the Fifth Steam Locomotive Trust and proposed new build

Personally I'm very supportive of this project, the locomotive in question is very unique and its got some serious people behind it.

As for those who say it wouldn't be practical on heritage railways due to it's large wheels... well, that probably describes most of the locomotives that we have running now.

In fact, I've always believed that these pre-grouping 4-4-0 new builds, are the ones most likely to succeed, because of several reasons.

These 3 for example:

•Their elegant and unique looks can generally pull the crowds more so then other engines, even the bigger ones.
•They have ample power and abilties that can be most useful on most heritage railways, just look at City of Truro and Repton, their no weaklings thats for sure.)
•Their generally more simpler and efficient engines to operate and maintain then the bigger engines, like a Pacific.

So overall, I'd say there's bigger potential with these 4-4-0, then there is with these other big mammoth new builds, certainly as far as using them in general is concerned.

And finally, as for this stubborn belief that 4-4-0s would be no good on the mainline, while they wouldn't be as capable as say, Tornado, that's not to say they'd be hopeless... The abilities of some of these old machines were amazing, certainly when compared to their larger successors, the George the Fifth class being no exception. Read the story about when one of these so called relics, successfully took over a train from a Royal Scot class loco, then tell me their useless...!

I think people dub them generally as impractical though, because there is so few who can remember the abilties of the 4-4-0s, and therefore, fall to the popular belief that their useless... when in reality, they can be full of surprises, if given the chance.

 

I'm not quite sure if it was but wasn't it Coronation of this class that was run alongside Rocket and 6220 Coronation when 6220 was launched. It was certainly an LNWR loco if it wasn't.

 

actually it was the Midland; their 1905 renumbering scheme survived larlgey in tact for 60 years...

 

Lion, Coronation and Coronation were filmed running parallel on the four track section between Colwyn Bay and Llandudno Junction in 1937. There is a film of the event about somewhere.

 

Ah that was it. Oh it was Lion not Rocket. Whoops. I remembered seing a clip of it somewhere. Can't remember where though. Wasn't it done to show the progression of the LMS with Lion representing the Liverpool and Manchester (which would become part of the LMS), Coronation representing the LNWR (which would be absorbed into the LMS) and 6220 which represented the modern image of the LMS.

 

Pathe news clip. TRAINS - British Pathé

 

I have to admit, a George V would be on my shopping list if I had a time machine. Hope I am in a position to throw some groats their way in the future - not been at Railfest the last 3 days, so have missed the chance to chat to the group, but I would have done given the opportunity.

 

Can be seen on British Pathe under "Coronation trains LMS London Midland Scotland Lion" Mods may not like me posting the link.

 

If you want to compare a "George the Fifth" with a Midland loco, the better comparison would be not with a compound but witha new-build "999". Deeley built these not just for the Leeds to Carlisle road but for comparison (more economic than performance) with his compounds. They performed well on this route, but had some weaknesses that could have been cured by development. However, after Deeley's abrupt departure, and as a class of only 10, there was little interest in improving a class that was adequate for the job so they soldiered on in their original form until withdrawn in the mid-1920s.

The Georges were a welcome return to a simple conventional loco after Webb's idiosyncratic pusuit of compounding.

 

Have done - it's waiting for a Mod to review

 

Post approved

http://railways.national-preservati...ve-trust-proposed-new-build-7.html#post484361

 

Hello everyone,
Back from my small break. I just wanted to let everyone know that I've been in touch with Bruce, Derek and Paul following their return from Railfest and they inform me that the stall proved to be a great success with tremendous interest shown, a healthy list of email and contact details taken down and a number of other exciting and positive first steps took place, which I hope to clear for public disclosure shortly. Thanks again for all the positive comments, discussions and not least, the fascinating Pathe video showing the two Coronations.

To all those of you who dropped by for a chat, ask questions, take donation and subscription forms and provide their contact details at Railfest, on behalf of Bruce, Paul and Derek, thanks! The lads had a very enjoyable time and feel very invigorated by the response at Railfest judging from the emails I've just received.

Cheers!

 

What I can confirm is that the George received its first authentic piece of hardware – an LNWR whistle! Paul Hibberd, one of the Trustees, was presented with the whistle from Mr Robin Dean in the cab of Hardwicke. Robin told us he was given the whistle by someone at Wolverton carriage works some sixty years ago. He said it was from one of the two LNWR 0-6-2 tanks there which had just gone up to Crewe to be scrapped. He had hoped to save one of them and the whistle gift was in consolation. The whistle will constitute a small but significant link with the LNWR.

Interest at Railfest included several young people and a few engineers. All good news. We continue to welcome all the expertise and enthusiasm we can get.

 

We have been absolutely delighted with the positive responses to this thread. We have had over seventy enquiries to follow up arising from our appearance at Railfest so we have been rather busy. However, please be assured that I will be responding to the range of interesting points raised shortly. In the meantime many thanks for your interest, which is appreciated.

 

Good news! Whilst being a GWR enthusiast and unable to help financially, (I believe the 2 are not mutually inclusive but I'm already committed!) I do think that this project has already shown that it means business. I was unable to attend Railfest but I'm very pleased to see that the George the Fifth Group did well and I think that our railway heritage will be better representative of its history when the ranks of working locomotives are joined by a new example of one of the LNWR's 20th Century passenger locomotives. (I know that a superb George the Fifth already exists but it is about 11 feet long.) At Llangollen I was very impressed with the Super D and I have now found myself researching more and more about the LNWR - will this cause me a crisis of conscience as a "Swindon" supporter I wonder? Good luck with this project anyway!

 

I'm first and foremost a Southern enthusiast (although I woiuld like to hope I'm sufficiently broad-minded to appreciate all steam) but otherwise would echo most of Kingham Branch's comments. The three main constituents of the Southern are well represented in preservation, even if most of the LBSCR locos are Terriers, and it seems a shame that by contrast so few LNWR engines are preserved. I like the Coal Tank, and recall a fine run on the KWVR when it was double-heading with the Midland Half Cab. I'm certainly tempted to renew my acquaintance with it this Autumn when it visits the SVR, which isn;t far from where I now live. i've just looked at your website, and my first impressions are very positive. Glad that you've had a good time at Railfest, and best wishes with your project which does have the feel that it's struck a chord with quite a few useful people already, and is likely to develop a good momentum.

 

Having had a good look through the whole thread I thought readers might appreciate a bit more extended feedback from us:
1. Engineering. This aspect is taken very seriously. We have a range of contacts but would certainly value more. We think a team approach is necessary to get the best results and there is certainly a lot to think about in taking a design from one hundred and two years ago and relating it to the constraints that apply today in making it acceptable to main line requirements and at the same time an attractive locomotive to operate on preserved lines. (Actually I would not prefer E S Cox as chief engineer because of his pre-dispositions, but Bowen-Cooke who sadly died prematurely in 1920 would have been absolutely ideal -as it would have saved me from the problem of trying to 'read his mind'.
What is particularly focusing my mind at present is the need to identify a project that can 'cut metal' and set the project really on its way, but which can be done for say £25k -cut the frames people will say but you have to be sure they are right taking into account everything else you expect in the exact design as built.
2. Age. Only one of us (Bruce) has ever seen a George the Fifth, my father lived for a further 20.75 years beyond my current age (and no he was not in his nineties!) and Derek is younger than I. More to the point however, I have an e-mail to respond to from somebody who is 20. All of us have to recognize that there is an over-riding need to reach out across the age spectrum and to the broader community who do not actively think of themselves as enthusiasts.
3. Site for basing the project/for construction. We would like to go somewhere where they would want us and wish to embrace the project. The Churnet Valley is an obvious possibility and others, including the Ribble are undoubtedly worth investigating. But clearly we need to gel with wherever we go. We have not begun talking yet but certainly will be. As regards final assembly, LNWR engines bear the legend 'built at Crewe', so other things being equal, at least final assembly at Crewe would be ideal.
4. As regards structure the Trust is set up on very much the same lines as Tornado, but we aim to be somewhat flexible on money as long as it comes in. We also recognise that not everybody will be in a position to contribute money and that we need as many friends as possible, so we intend to send regular e-mail newsletters to anybody who expresses an interest (a 'friends' concept) if you like.

 

Paul Hibberd (L&NWR), who is one of the trustees has contributed to this thread, clarifying some areas. John and Kinghambranch I'll be sure to reply to your posts when work let's up and time permits but again thanks for your positive words and expressions of support even if financial support isn't possible.

As to me my primary primary interest over the years has been the Midland (which is practically heretical to admit to any LNWR man) and the LSWR. However, I've grown increasingly interested all things LNWR; not least since I joined this project. The GWR rightly deserves the interest it garners but no doubt part of that stems from the fact that it managed to maintain it's identity post-1923 and that so many engines relative to other railway companies managed to survive into preservation. The GWR is a fascinating concern but the LNWR has a history as interesting and as rich as the GWR prior to 1923 (for instance, Euston, the first intercity terminal in London originally had land set-aside for the GWR when it entered into London. The GWR's terminus was originally meant to be built right next door to the London and Birmingham's London terminus.)

Anyway, I hope to respond soon.

 

I would like to offer this project my best wishes, if not my cash, which is currently committed to the Severn Valley, Hagley Hall, 42968 and 82045. There's only so much of me to go round. I am confused as to why people think this machine would not be suitable for the main line. Any engine which can pick up a 420 ton train and a sick "Scot" and make up 15 minutes between Crewe and Euston can be expected to handle most of what the main line could throw at it. Maybe it could not handle 13 coach trains, but it would not cost as much as engines that could. As someone else posted, I think people have forgotten what these engines could do. I hope I'm around to see it run.

Regards,

jtx