Margaret - ex. Penrhyn Quarry

Anyone aware of the current status of the restoration of ex. Penrhyn Hunslet "Margaret"?

If I remember correctly the new boiler has been finished but I can't remember hearing if the boiler has been fitted or not.

TiA

Charlie

 

On another forum, it has been reported: "A reliable source has informed me that Peter Rampton has tentatively discussed (with the railway concerned) running one of his locomotives, on a railway other than the VOR, in the next year or two."

I suspect that, if it ever comes to pass, "Margaret" would be a likely candidate but the "in the next year or two" statement does not create much excitement for me, bearing in mind that a large part of the V of R "heritage stock" has been in store for several decades.

Ian

 

There is more info here on the full collection:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Rampton_Trust

This page includes links to their annual reports to the charity commission:
http://www.charity-commission.gov.u...steredCharityNumber=292240&SubsidiaryNumber=0

The 2007 report (the last posted) clearly states

"The objectives shall be to preserve, exhibit, display and loan for demonstration for the public benefit and for the advancement of technical, historical and general education, steam and other railway locomotives, rolling stock, equipment, machines and relics which are historical, operational and of general interest and in addition are of educational value. The objective of the charity is also the preservation, maintenance and promotion of narrow gauge railways"

http://www.charity-commission.gov.u...ccounts/Ends40/0000292240_ac_20071231_e_c.pdf

 

re - Margaret - ex. Penrhyn Quarry

I posted the following on another forum some time ago but as it appears that there is still some confusion as to the position of the PRNGT, I thought it worthwhile re-airing it with a few new comments (It is too long for one post so please read both in sequence if you are interested):-

Owing to a lot of misconception and frankly incorrect statements and assumptions, I decided to see if investigating the current situation could inject some reality into the matter; particularly as, in attempting to assemble a database of narrow gauge steam locos in the UK - their origin, state and location, I have come across some (and the lack of some) pertinent information.
I have known about the assemblage of locomotives etc. since the formation of what was, and to me still is, known as “Collection X”. Like many other narrow gauge enthusiasts, I have been irritated by the lack of information, appearance and access to the collection since its formation in the middle 1960s. Yes, this all started over 40 years ago!

Before I go any further, I would like to make it clear that what appears here is my own understanding and interpretation of the situation. I have no interest in any of the organisations involved; neither am I connected to, known to, or have met or communicated with any of the principals, directors, trustees or employees of any of the companies or individuals involved, as far as I know! Because of that I do not wish to pass judgement about the situation, merely to attempt to clarify it. Neither am I, other than by ordinary non-participating membership, involved in any railway organisation or project. all that follows is based on information and material that is in the public domain.

The first time I had any knowledge of the collection was in the mid to late 1960s when rumours were circulating, in the railway enthusiast�s press, of the importation of locos by a group of “enthusiastic preservationists” based in Surrey. I didn’t have any details until the publication of Roger Cromblehome’s “Steam 75”, where Collection X’s membership was disclosed as “ J. Britton, P. Rampton, W. Lees and N. Bowman “ with an address of Burgate Farm, Loxhill, Surrey. It transpired that they had acquired the entire stock of 600mm locos and the 4 wheeled Directors saloon from the Sabrero colliery system (Hulleras de Sabero y Anexas, S.A) in northern central Spain, when the 600mm system was abandoned in 1968. Lawrence Marshall’s “Spanish Narrow Gauge Steam Remembered”, pp 155-163 has some splendid photographs of these, including two of the Couillets and the Directors saloon, being unloaded from ship, at West India Docks, on 3 Feb 1969. Along with these were Hunslet “Lillian” which was acquired from Penrhyn Quarries in 1965/6; I don’t know if Nigel Bowman bought this directly(he did) or if there was any intermediary. As far as I know, this appears to be the only escapee from the collection and is now, of course, with Nigel at the Launceston Steam Railway. I don’t know for certain, but supect, that Lillian was never intended to be part of the collection proper (it wasn’t). Other items in the collection in 1975 were the Avonside Heisler Renishaw No 4 and Bagnall Meyer Renishaw No 5, both from Crookes Bros. Ltd, Renishaw Sugar Estates in Natal. I don’t have dates for these additions but I know that the Bagnall underwent a repair and was still in Natal in 1968. A 1916 Dick Kerr diesel, from France, was also added in 1968. By 1980 there had been a few further additons: NG13 no. 82 Hannomag 10634, Bagnall 0-4-2T 2895, four Motor Rail 4-wheel diesels and four Isle of Man Railway bogie coaches. I don’t have further details of additions to this collection between 1980 and now but perusal of the later Steam ?? vols would probably reveal some further dates.
The one unanswered (as far as I know) question is, to whom did these and the subsequently acquired locos belong? Were they owned co-operatively or did individual locos have differing owners?
Whatever we may think about the acquisition of these items, it is worthwhile remembering that, without this intervention, by now most would have disappeared into razor blades, washing machines or the like!
In 1985 The Phyllis Rampton Narrow Gauge Railway Trust (PRNGRT) was formed and registered with the Charity Commission. Why it was set up and what it did in the early days and from where its funds came, I do not know. Reports published on the web only go back to 2004. However the one significant point that seems to have been overlooked by most people is that, this Trust does not own any locomotives or railway rolling stock. In the published accounts the Trust’s assets are virtually all financial investments, excepting a small amount of office equipment and unspecified photographs and records with a declared value of £10,100 which is not depreciated annually. Fixed Asset Investments show listed securities with a market value of just under £3 million and unlisted securities of just over £500,000. These latter consist of 100% share holding in The Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd., valued at purchase in 1990 at £471,856 and considered not to have altered, and £34,900 of non-interest bearing loan stock. The trust is owed just over £1.9 million by the VoR. This is also declared to be non-interest bearing, repayable on 366 days notice and not before 1 year. The accounts also state that, because of its charitable status, this debt may be turned into a gift at a later date but no decision has been taken by the trustees. The Trust also holds a fixed and floating charge on the assets of the VoR to cover the loans.
The latest published return shows the trustees as: Mr Colin William Bardwell JP, Mr Allan Baker, Mrs Ann Archer, Mr John Brooker, Mr Nicholas Acomb, Mr Thomas Civil (Allen Civil), Mr James William Bardwell. The contact & contact address is given as Mr Peter J Rampton, Markwick Farm, Loxhill, nr. Godalming. Note! Peter Rampton is not a trustee of PRNGRT.

 

Re: - Margaret - ex. Penrhyn Quarry -cont'd

Attention now turns to the sale, by British Rail, of the Vale of Rheidol Railway. Having been put up for sale by the British Rail Board, the assets of what was originally The Vale of Rheidol Light Railway (subsequently absorbed by GWR) were transferred to a company initially known as Crondall Ltd., which changed its name to The Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd in January 1988. I don’t know the amount paid for the assets and I am unsure as to whether this company was a subsidiary of the Brecon Mountain Railway or Hills & Bailey Ltd., or to what extent Peter Rampton was involved; however this situation was relatively short lived as it was sold to the PRNGRT in 1996 and it was registered as a charity on 16 June 1999.
The latest published return (y/e 31 Dec 2007) shows the directors and trustees as: P J Rampton, N Thompson, A Archer, P J N Ellis. The registered office is again Markwick Farm and Mrs Ann Archer is the Company Secretary.
As the returns, easily available on line, only go back to 2003, I haven’t been able to discern when The Vale of Rheidol Railway obtained assets listed as Heritage Assets, the book value of which is shown as £882,585 at 31 Dec 2007. The following statement is shown on the company return for 2005:

"The directors have reviewed depreciation policy in the light of FRS 15 and SORP 2005. Non working locomotives that are museum pieces have been reallocated as heritage assets. The cost of these locomotives at 1st January 2005, £701,937, has been transferred from the cost brought forward of locomotives and rolling stock to cost brought forward of heritage assets. Comparative figures have been restated to reflect this change."

It appears fairly certain that these heritage assets are “Collection X” plus the further additions to the collection. The label “museum pieces” is interesting as it probably is used to reinforce statements made in the past that it is intended that a building eventually be erected to house the collection and present it as a museum. There have been applications made to the Heritage Lottery Fund but, as far as I know, none have been successful to date. There has been talk of work being done on some of the items in the VoR’s new workshop but no confirmation of what and to which has been forthcoming. (This has now been established as “Margaret”)
When these pieces were acquired by the VoR and from whom is not clear from the documentation available to me now but I think that some of the large amount showing that it owes to the PRNGRT probably (or possibly) represents their purchase. The additions seem to be ongoing, at least until the end of 2007.
As to whether or not the PRNGRT has not conducted itself in line with its charitable status, you have to look carefully at not just the Charitable Objects statement on its registration but also at the Classification - What, Who and How.

What -Education/Training
Environment/Conservation/Heritage

Who - Other charities/Voluntary bodies

How - Makes grants to organisations

From its returns, it appears that The Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd has been in receipt of considerable financial support from the PRNGRT, so I think it is probable the Charity Commission would consider that in line with its aims. If you make a similar investigation of The Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd.’s registration I think there is little doubt that it also fulfils its obligations, whether or not it has a museum open to the public at the moment.
To get the complete picture it would be nccessary to investigate the filings of The Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd. at Companies House and the earlier returns of the PRNGRT at the Charity Commission. However with regard to the purposes for which I orignally set out on this little bit of research, I don’t think that is needed at this time
As both of these organisations are properly constituted they will have had to prepare & present a Risk Assessment for both legal & insurance purposes. That the Health & Safety ticket has been played as a reason for not allowing viewings of the stored items, I believe is a perfectly valid, if convenient, excuse.
Whilst you may have gathered that I don’t agree with a lot of the earlier outpourings on this topic, I still agree that it has been a great shame that this mouth watering collection has been out of view for such a protracted period and begs the question - WHY? I am now getting to an age where I wonder if I ever will see the Sabero locos and the Heisler before the gas-axe is applied to my frames.
Whatever happens in the future is now up to the Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd.; not the PRNGRT or Peter Rampton as an individual. However as a director & trustee of that company and his 40+ year association of the collection and its formation, I have little doubt that he might have something to say in how it is handled. I guess we are going to have to wait until the museum, in whatever form it might take, is built or the collection is dispersed (unlikely I would think) we can do little but wait. I hope I am still around and in a fit state to travel if and when that happens.


- I hope this will clarify the situation. This has been something of a "cause celèbre" with me for a number of years and whilst everyone is entitled to their own opinion I do get a little frustrated when incorrect or misleading statements go by without comment or correction. I am only too glad to be corrected if appropriate and very pleased when people add to my frequenly scant knowledge.

Ian

 

Wow, it certainly appears that you have done quite some investigation in to the organisation. The whole thing is very well written indeed, and makes a lot of sense too.

These people are not "stupid" and will be sure to cover the required elements of the Charities Commission in some way I would guess. I would also guess it would cost them a fortune if they got it wrong and the commissions causght up with them! My speculation only though.

I think most narrow gauge enthusiasts on the planet would love to look at the collection, I do begin to wonder if we will ever get to see it at all.

When the restoration of Monarch was being carrid out at the W&L, I believe that the trust was written to and asked if it would be possible to view Reinshaw No5 - a 2' gauge version of the same thing essentially, alas permission was denied I understand.

In some ways I understand it, in others it makes one quite sad indeed.

Re Margret;

I haven't seen the progress on her for quite a while, but I would guess I looked at the frames/cylinders back in late 2001. She was being overhauled in the VoR workshops by a guy who used to be the driver/workshop man over there. I understand from others that he left a few years ago to persue another line of work, but that he was going in on his days off to carry on working on Margret.

Lets hope we see her out and about in the not too distant future!

Possibly back on the Penrhyn where she began life???

 

Shame the PRNGT wont just let one guy and a camera into their Surry site just to take a photo of everything...imagine a lot of people would be happy with that!

 

Restoration of Margaret is gradually progressing at Aberystwyth. Work on the frames and valve gear is at an advanced stage and valve setting is imminent. Once this is complete the boiler will probably be fitted.

 

This would make quite an good bit of journalism if one of the mags could get images of the collection.

 

IIRC, and this is going back about 15/16 years; I've seen two or three pictures of the collection. I can't for the life of me remember what was in them or who took the pictures. What I do remember is that these pictures were talked about in suitably hushed and reverential tones.

On the subject of a vaguely-related Penrhyn topic, I gather from visiting some (non-railway) friends in Bethesda last weekend that there has been some financial misdeeds at the Quarry, resulting in the management being sent on a holiday at HMs pleasure.

 

There was a Stock Exchange announcement in Jan 2007 and a Cabinet Statement from the Welsh Assembly in March 2007 regarding the "Accounting irregularities" and the following link to another forum gives more details:

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/community/viewtopic.aspx?p=48584

Ian

 

Photos?

http://www.narrow-gauge.co.uk/gallery/show.php?image_id=3958&cat_id=33

I belive the picture here is part of the collention (L-R) A Decauville 1027, Dewinton "Katleen" and a Fowler?

Regards,

 

Thanks for the various replies relating to Margaret.

Incidentally I have seen photos of part of the collection in Surrey - the photos are in the private collection of one Nigel Bowman and date from his involvement with "Collection X" in the 60s/70s. From what Nigel has said recently I believe that Margaret will be returning to steam in the next year or two - hence the enquiry as to how she is getting along.

 

Steaming in the next year or two sounds very feasible to me. As with any overhaul progress is gradual as it is being finished to a high standard. It will be ready when it is ready!

As you can imagine a lot of works time is spent on routine maintainance on the operational fleet - namely Rheidol tanks No. 8 "Llywelyn" and No. 9 "Prince of Wales" , Baguley diesel and track plant so Margaret ends up on the back burner

 

Rightio then chaps as has been said by WAJ Steam the Hunslet is at an advanced stage, the Boiler came back from Boilersmiths Winter 2007 and since then not a great deal has been done as other work has been taking priority leaving the toys to be worked on when time allows and during summer period by our Engineer. I am sorry to dispel the myth that Margret will steam in the next year the next two three years maybe the loco in Question for steaming is an 0-4-0 Kerr Stuart Wren class loco which for anyone who has visited and purchased a copy of the guide book shall see that its ready to go apart from the required certification

 

Does anyone have an update on the progress on Margaret? I have recently heard a rumour that she will be moving from Aberystwyth for a 'fast track' completion to her overhaul followed by a season at Launceston - but as usual with rumours you don't know how much (if any!) is true, so I would appreciate any updates from those in the know.

 

Don't know about current progress - though I'm sure one of the Rheidol staff will provide an update soon - but at present there are no firm plans for Margaret to come to Launceston.

 

Hi Guys is this the same Margaret that was owned by the late Colin Pealling?

 

Ah jolly good. I do love the rumour mill! This is the first any of us have head of it!

Very little progress has been made recently. Our chief priority is working on the VoR fleet.

@Lynbarn - yes this is the same loco.

 

I assume all the effort away from running day to day is the overhaul and launch of Lew, when did you say the doubleheader with Lyd to Devils Bridge was again?...