the surviving unrestored Ffestiniog locos what should happen to them???

I wish to start this thread to discuss 3 locos on the Ffestiniog railway, namely Princess, Welsh Pony and Livingston Thompson/ Taliesin/ Earl of Merioneth.
I wish to hear peoples views on what should be the future for these locos.
to start off hear is mine:
Princess: Ideally if there is money she should be restored like Palmerston but possibly with modern chopper couplings as she was the last loco in service in 1946 so she could be in OK condition to restore. Comersially she could be rebuilt like Prince with super heating, piston valves and an enlarged cab so that her and Prince could double head ad pull a full FR rake. Historically she can be restored because only her frames are original as her boiler and superstructure have been replaced or rebuilt over the years so they are not original to the loco and if Prince is anything to go by the look of the loco would not be comprised by either a historic rebuild or a modernizing one.
Welsh Pony: She was condemned in the late 30's so she will need require a lot of work when restored. Comersially she would be a good loco as she is more powerful than Prince and would not need to be modified in appearance as Prince was as she has the same side cab and superstructure already. Historically is where it gets difficult as she is possibly the most original out of the surviving Englands since she was built with a saddle tank and has only really had an enclosed cab fitted the rest is basically as built so if rebuilt some of this could be lost.
Livingston Thompson: Firstly this loco has ran in preservation being the second loco restored after Prince where she was effectively run into the ground due to no other locos being available so this could hinder any future restoration to her. Comersially she would be a great loco to have but with 3 other perfectly good fairlys, Lyd and Mountineer in a more easily restorable state would her restoration be just from this point of view and i think it would be as the fairly can cope with 12 car trains as mountineer and Lyd can only do 8 or 9 and the other locos would require double heading to pull 12 which would increase costs of fuel burned and maintenance and with the new carriages being built 3 12 coach trains could be possible in a few years time so 3 fairlys would be needed but having 4 would be ideal as 3 could work and the 4th on standby, resting or allowing for maintenance. Historically she is the most origonal fairly of the historic era since ME has been subsequently rebuilt twice in preservation drastically, but as we have seen with DLG a modern fairly can be achived while having an historic exterior and with modern welding techniques her boiler could be repaired or replaced as i don't think its original anyway and neither are the bogeys so with new piston valve bogeys, new/rebuilt super heated boiler she could be an equal to DLG.
many thanks
Patrick

 

In reverse order, my views:

LT has a knackered boiler and is sitting on knackered bogies made up of knackered bits. The superstructure, whilst pretty, is virtually knackered. To restore her to service would take the replacement of pretty much the whole loco - oh wait, isn't that what happened in 1971-1979... However, she is very pretty and doing a wonderful job as an advert in York - leave her where she is.

Welsh Pony is in as near original 1930s condition as it is possible to be, but complete with the results of having spent much of the intervening period outside - large parts are in danger of falling to bits in short order. Although the purist in me says she should be stabilised and kept in aspic as an example of "old-FR" motive power - of course what you would be preserving wouldn't be an original locomotive, it would serve best to illustrate what you get when you run a loco until it starts to fall apart, nick all the removable bits as spares and then leave the remainder outside for the best part of 80 years. If the loco is to survive at all, a cosmetic restoration is going to be as lossy to original material as a gentle and sympathetic restoration back into the working fleet, so the arguments for preservation of whats left over restoration swing, IMHO, more towards restoration - although possibly not quite at the hell-for-leather pace the FR were proposing a year or two back...

Princess basically reads as per LT above. Although she is knackered she has spent much of the last 60 years under cover and cared for, permanently since 1980 odd, intermittemtly prior to that, and was a whole lot less shot than Welsh Pony, Her current state of preservation is such that she quite accurately represents the Small England locomotive as in service between 1910 and 1946, is of immense historic value as a museum piece, and is in no danger of imminently falling to bits. Leave her as a static exhibit, although preferably not in the pub (he says whilst comprehensively failing to think of where else she could go).

All of the above is my opinion. I don't feel that the FR really *needs* any more motive power anyway, but certainly Princess and LT should be left alone. Welsh Pony is a marginal case, but I think slightly better off being restored to work, than cosmetically restored.

John

 

I'm with John on this, the only thing I would do is rebuild WP as open cab to give the FR a 'Victorian' looking loco to be on the front of thier 'victorian' train.

 

What John said. Can't abide the "STEAM EVERYTHING NOW!!!" mentality you get on here sometimes.

 

I see what you are saying Selsig but from looking at records on Princess she might not be as knackerd as you may think as she revived a new boiler in 1923 and last worked in 1946 so it only did about 20 years work and Prince's has done almost double that, and she might be in better condition as she was last repaired in 1937 ans last ran in 1946 so she might be in far better condition than we think as i don't think anyone has done a detailed survey of her for restoration. And with LT only her boiler was declared bad in 1971 and things have moved on since then and i think that her boiler could be restored and from looking over her at the NRM last year her superstructure looks pretty sound.
thanks
Patrick
@guard_jamie: i did not say that at all please read what i said again as i first put if money is available which does not mean steam everything now and my mentality is perfectly logical thank you.

 

in 1971, it was decided it was quicker and easier to build 2 new boilers (ME and EoM) than to restore the one in the NRM. Are you suggesting that in the last 30 years in storage, the condition of the boiler has improved?

 

im saying the technology to restore the boiler has improved

 

Patrick, my post was not aimed directly at you but more generally, however I fully appreciate that is not how it may look. Ok, you aren't calling for their return to steam now, but you are calling for their return to steam at some point in the future.

I have to ask, why? What will it gain? We have Palmerston, Prince and Merddyn Emrys flying the flag for the golden oldies, with three more Fairlie replicas besides (Taliesin, David Lloyd George and Earl of Merioneth).

If you are keen to see another Fairlie in service, why not build new - it's been done! If you want to see a large England - why not build new? Larger engines have been built! Build new and be sure of a quality loco designed to give years of service. (By the way, this has got me thinking - why not a newbuild of an England in original spec? Now that would be different!

What I'm saying is, Princess and Livingstone Thompson may not be original to their build date, but they are as good as we've got in terms of 'original to pre-preservation FR' locomotives. The ones still running have undergone epic rebuilds and restorations. Princess and Livingstone Thompson are, and should remain, museum pieces, otherwise all we'd have in 50 years time would be a variety of Trigger's Brooms - four new heads and five new handles!

I'm not out for total conservation - far from it - operation is the best means of interpretation - but as we are lucky enough to have several locos from the pre-preservation FR days, why can't we run some and others serve as museum pieces, thus fulfilling both mandates?

Incidentally, may I ask you what your opinion is on City of Birmingham?

 

On city of Birmingham i would want to see her in steam again in br blue with a semi smoke box but there are several factors for and against this 1. she is stuck in a museum where it would have to be demolished for her to be removed 2. her owners wont let her go as she is the only br overhauled loco, which has since been proven that it is not so 3. there is already a duchess running out there. but in ten years time when sutherland runs out of it ticket the owning group wishes to restore there princess so there will be at least 10 years with no duchess on the mainline and with the NRM atm its a bit of a taboo subject on restoring locos after flying scotsman. so birmingham would be the best loco to fly the duchess flag as she would be something different to both hamelton and sutherland with semi smoke box and br blue livery so she is a different case to the fr locos.
My view of rebuilds is for a purpose like tornado to bring an a1 back from the dead, lyd a l&b back from the dead, 82045 new economical branch loco, EofM and DLG to easily replace aging locos with a more modern powerful design but i dont like the idea of building new builds for the sake of it other wise there is no point in preservation at all if we just build new locos all the time that why i would like to see LT restored rather than a new loco with LT nameplates as then it has lost all of its character so even if its just the frames left as then it will still be an original loco rather than a new one so the character is retained but with a loco that can stand up to modern requirements and if these 3 were restored and updated so to speak this would mean for the first time in 50 years the FR could be run only using locos design and built for the line as princess and WP would do away with linda and blanch (although these are now regarded as fr locos) and LT would do away with Lyd which could go to the Whr or live in devon with the other L&B replicas and Taw if she is ever found. I can understand the idea of keeping something as original as possible to preserved the past but if that happened there would be no operable locos in preservation by now as to preserve originality we would have museum not preserved railways and apart from LT they haven't been treated to well while on static disply with most of the fittings missing and being left out side for years and even with LT even though she is cosmetically restored the NRM have shoved her between a king and large tank engine in the great hall so really if you didnt go and look you would miss her so if she was restored that would be a much greater testimony to there heritage than being stuck in a museum or a shed in WP case. i understand the originality argument and the no need for them at this time but one day i would like to see all of them in steam and running not at the same time but each of them in turn as thats what they were built for.
thanks
Patrick

 

I thought so. I think you and I will never agree on what should be done with some of the locos in existence today.

 

I'm with John and Ian on this one. If WP were to be restored then it would give an interpretation of the difference in performance between large and small England loco's. If we are talking new builds then my money would be on a recreation of Mountaineer in 1860's style to complete the England development story

 

Replica Rachel Parry surely?

 

Like others have mentioned, I would rather like to see Welsh Pony restored to service, without too much modernising either.

As to the others, well Princess was around and intact when the preservationists got going in the 1950's. I'm sure that if her condition had been remotely useable she would have been overhauled then or soon after. Although she may have been in service up until the closure in 1946, remember that the Ffestiniog had been running on a shoestring for many years; "make do and mend" had been the philosophy for some years prior to the war, and you can be certain that during the war years little would have been done to renew and maintain her unless absolutely critical. She was, by all accounts, completely worn out.

Livingston Thompson, likewise, had reached the point where so much needed doing that it was considered better to build new. That was partly due to the new boiler being bigger and different to the original, and many felt at the time that a new loco was better than doing what had been done to Merddin. However, the new Earl used the existing bogies. What LT sits on now are cobbled together from a variety of parts from other (in some cases much older) locos. To restore to service would effectively result in a new loco again. It may look nice, but would the tanks hold water (and continue to do so rattling up the line again and again)? How much fatigue is there in the frames? And so on..

At present, both Princess and Livingston Thompson are well cared for, protected and on public view. Let them remain there! Welsh Pony needs to be taken in hand to be restored (either properly cosmetically, or back into service). At the moment he/she(?) is in limbo, but not at risk. But for that (particularly if to return to service) money is needed, and I suspect that the F&WHR need to spend what money they have on what is needed, rather than on what is nice. Of course if a generous benefactor came along and said "I'll pay" it might be a different story!

And don't forget Mountaineer waiting patiently - possibly more useful than a restored Welsh Pony.

Steve B

 

In reality the only difference between the small and large england locos these days is the wheelbase. Performance wise there wouldn't be much in it thanks to new tyres, bored out cylinders etc. "Superheaters" is probably a grandiose term for what Prince is fitted with. I expect all they do is be an extra thing to maintain and increase the wear rate of the valves.

Personally I would remove some of the awful mods to Prince and slowly return it to pre preservation condition. As much fun as it was, the need for it to pull 6 cars up the FR isn't there any more.

Welsh Pony needs restoring before it falls apart and the chassis at least is in good condition As has been said it is only representative of an engine left outside to rot for years. It is Kind of the evil step child the FR locks in the loft so nobody can see it. As has been said many times Palmerston was in a far worse state and look at it now.

I see no reason why Princess couldn't be steamed with a brand new boiler thus leaving the original intact at some point in the future. But for now some cosmetic attention like a proper paint job and replacing missing fittings would be good. Some parts on it are off other engines the spectacles are off Welsh Pony for example. The frames are not original btw. The original frames were a different profile.

Palmerston continues to be a useful engine and a helpful ambassador for the railway. I doesn't draw on the railways resources too much as a volunteer group look after it most of the time.

LT is best left where it is. You wouldn't be able to use much of it to make a working engine.

What matters most is that they are all secure and undercover and the all have a future whatever that may be.

 

Welsh Pony - I for one would love to see the day this engine rolls along the line in porthmadog and maybe even the welsh highland railway. I would say this though i never agreed with her ever being used as a gate guardian. I am glad that she is under cover and atleast has a coat of paint on her. I would also dip my hand into my pocket and contribute to her restoration.... As to what sort of cab welsh pony should have then i wouldnt mind seeing it in either enclosed or face plate....just wouldnt see it out during winter lol

I for one am not a great lover of Prince or as i call it Prince on steroids. It just looks too beefed up compared to palmerston but i also understand why they have enlarged it.

Princess.... I think the one thing that people are missing about this loco is that she was stood for 9 years with water in her tanks.....would cant be a good thing for any engine. I am also of the opinion that i would also like to see her resteamed... i do honestly think she would need a bit more than just a new boiler though but she has to be the best of the two remaining also she needs a tender......imagine all 4 in a convoy

 

I firmly believe that Princess should never be restored. She was the world's first 2' gauge steam locomotive: her success made locomotive haulage in hundreds of industrial locations possible, as well as paving the way for the use of narrow gauge for public railways such as the L&B and VofR. After Puffing Billy and Rocket, she must surely be one of the most important preserved locomotives in the world. To destroy her historical integrity now would be wrong. (Like Selsig, I also believe that she deserves better than a corner of Spooner's Bar. If anything, she should be next to LT at York - but I appreciate that the NRM has many pressures on space.)

I'd be more relaxed about restoring Welsh Pony, though I think that the locomotive should be comprehensively recorded in its current condition before any work begins.

As for Prince: it's major rebuilding and enlargement has not improved its looks, but modifications made to suit the traffic requirements of the 1980s are now as much a part of the locomotive's history as its rebuild to saddletank condition in the 1890s. If anything, I'd quite like to see it taken back to 1980s condition with green livery, enlarged tender oil tanks, etc. Then it would be an honest portrayal of the England locomotive at the peak of its evolution, instead of trying and (to the trained eye) failing to look Victorian, as at present. But I suspect I may be in a minority on that point...

 

I agree with this. One of the reasons I like Earl of Merioneth is that it shows a development of the original idea. Trying to make modern things look victorian often ends up with them looking more Disney-like. Whilst I'm very much in favour of preserving the past (and as far as the England locos go, Palmerston is a good example of this) we should also recognise that the Ffestiniog Railway has a long history that did not stop at 1946. It's developments of locos and stock since the 1960's are to be recognised as well.

Having said that, modern developments don't have to be ugly. I much prefer EoM in the present form and livery to that originally turned out on the 70"s!

Steve B

 

It would be an honest portrayal of what happens when a load of ex-british rail drivers try apply their mainline ideas to a 1860s narrow gauge shunting engine on a tight budget. It is not an evolution it is a bodge job. Some of it like the ridiculous sub frame, which looks like it is made from scrap metal randomly glued together is a backwards step. The original concept is sound and has been for 149 years.

Princess does have a tender. It is behind Welsh Pony. Linda is technically the engine missing a tender.

 

I wouldnt be against Welsh Pony returning to steam but would prefer the tender (originally with Princess to be cosmetically restored to go with Princess and a new build tender for Welsh Pony)

Mountaineer is one I would like to see steaming again but likewise know the realities of what's involved to do so.

The others Princess and Livingston should be left as static given condition and historical value.

Duncan

 

Agree with pretty much all of that, Leave Princess and Livingston Thompson where they are, another Small England would be of limited use in bread and butter service, while there would be advantages to a 4th Double Fairlie, there are enough other Loco's to take up the slack, plus the FR deserves at least one Loco in the NRM.

Welsh Pony has somewhat forced peoples hand in that something has to be done before it falls into a pile of rust, if comestic restoration would involve the loss of a lot/most original material, you may as well go the whole hog and make it an operational, usefull asset at the same time.