70013 Wood Green incident RAIB report published

spot on sche ,Very well put

 

HI
SCHE this statment is a bit wrong , hence one of the reasons why a boiler can be overfilled...to prevent safety valves lifting.you dont want to over fill a boiler , reason is if the water is in the top nut or out of sight , top of the gauge glass , the loco may prime or called carry over plus the water can be picked up by the safty valves when it blows off , if the boiler is full to the very top with water, am i right or wrong on this. FISH7373 81C

 

The bulletin notes that they did not think there was enough in the incident to produce a full report with the usual recommendations. So the advice is just that - a reiteration of that long held to be 'how to do it'. Not a suggestion that the crew didn't know, of course.

 

Yes, you are right that the water level lifts when the safety valves lift, but it doesn't stop people doing it nonetheless and you can get away with a full glass in some circumstances (eg depending on the boiler design, the gradient, steam throughput etc etc) but I am sure you are well aware of that. In a perfect world ....

 

No trolling at all!! Plain fact, far too many consider operating a steam loco on the mainline to be just like an amble along a branchline somwhere at 25/30 mph when in fact they are world's apart!!
Why would someone who has no experience of operating steam on the mainline and the pressures that go with it be questioning the actions of those who do it so regulary?
As you say you dont know about mainline, so are you now trolling?????

 

I am not involved in the rail business, but I have a question that the RAIB report does not cover. It does seem a good factual report of what happened. My question is about what PPE the crew were wearing. In fact, are there regulations on PPE to be worn on the footplate? Are the coveralls or top garments worn flameproof? I hate them as they are too hot when working hot places, but I also know how they are designed to protect me from this type of incident so need to be worn. I know a bit of discomfort at work is better than a lifetime of discomfort after an accident.

 

hi 45045, just a personal thought that PPE consists of Steel toe capped boots and at least 100% Cotton bib and braces for the footplate with 100% cotton shirt (to save melting nylon) on the railway I work on. but from the experiences I have had with Standard Gauge preserved railways you would not want to be operating the engine in a fully fireproof set of overalls as you would bake! and serious dehydration would result as I assume conditions at 75 are even hotter?

cheers

 

I agree about the baking as I regularly wear on site here in the desert where it can be over 50C. I did not mean the PPE we used at british steel which was the same material as a donkey jacket, but the Nomex type which is much thinner but still hot. What you will typically see at a refinery. What surprised me that the report did not state what was being worn, as, like you say, have an effect on injuries, eg if polyester or nylon was being worn (I am sure nobody would wear these).

 

Whilst the report mentions that the tunnel was single bore, no more is said. Bearing in mind the typical profiles of single and double bore tunnels, it must surely be more likely that the greater back pressure above the chimney in a single bore tunnel will create a greater risk of a blow-back. Given the crew's actions, it may not have occurred in a double-bore tunnel and this needs to be borne in mind in relation to safety reminders, that is, precautions as set out but extra vigilance where a single-bore tunnel is being approached..

 

Agree about the overalls. Modern nomex overalls like you would use in Refinery or offshore are not much thicker or heavier than standard overalls. They are not as expensive as they once were either. If I were footplate crew I would certainly obtain my own set.

 

I have to agree with you Steve. Being a mainline driver means being able to cope with simultaneous traction and "railway environment" issues, regardless of the form of traction involved or the rail and visibility conditions. The difference with a steam loco, is its tendency to damage itself, or you, if you don't. I would not want to have to outline that sequence of events to my management at work. "Tea and biscuits Driver?"

 

Got a right one here....

I thought "knowing the road", and signing for it, would mean he had an idea where he was at, at any point in time, if so a warning would have sufficed.

Im sure Steve would have reacted in a way to prevent an unfortunate proble, thats because he knows his road....

 

Sorry for the late reply...but no it isn't a reiteration. The long held way, as you put it, is to close the doors and open the blower sufficiently to prevent a blow back. Blower full on and regulator open is going considerably further (as I understand it).

On PPE - is this not set (and perhaps provided) by the employer after a risk assessment? I think the old style overalls are still mprobably the best compromise - I also see more and more of those hi-viz shunters jackets being worn on the footplate...I bet they melt nicely!

Would Pesmo be kind enough to provide a web link to the type of overalls he is referring to?

 

You can get 2 piece ones as well. Here is one company Dickies Flame Retardant Mens Workwear: Workwear Coveralls, Overalls & Boilersuits: Dickies Store UK
But you can get cheaper

 

I've not responded to this thread before because I've not wanted to be branded a troll because of my low post count and the fact that I might take an opposing view to 'Steve' or 'guycarr360' but it's my view (which has been formed by a considerable number of years of operational railway experience) that, as human beings, we are all more than capable of momentary oversights. Depending on circumstance any momentary lapse can either not have any consequence at all or, at the other extreme, may result in injury or death. It's a much more sensible approach in my opinion to say 'there but for the grace of God..' and learn from the actions of others rather than to berate the individuals involved particularly when you don't know how you would have dealt with the particular set of challenges they were facing at the time. Gromit is entirely right to point out the differences between running on a preserved line and being on the footplate of a heavily loaded 75mph train on today's mainline railway. I'm not really sure how someone who hasn't experienced both could say otherwise. If it's unacceptable to hold differing views then we may as well not have online forums and to insult people for doing so is not acceptable in my view.

I'm not sure that wearing Proban or Nomex without some kind of face protection would be that beneficial to be honest and, I for one, don't fancy having to fire in such garb. It's sensible to wear clothing that isn't going to melt and it also probably a good idea to keep one's arms covered if possible but I think that's about as far as one can practically go. It's probably best that we go on as we do now because I fear that any close analysis of what might be suitable PPE on a steam locomotive footplate might have unexpected consequences if you get my drift.

 

My point was what I see as an omission from the RAIB report. Whenever I conduct an investigation where personnel have been involved a mandatory section I must fill out is on PPE. I must state what PPE is required by the company to perform the work, what PPE was actually used and what the condition of this PPE was at the time. If any of you have seen the Charlie video, you will know that these overalls do provide some protection from fires (he had cut his sleeves off as he was in Texas and it was hot and uncomfortable with sleeves. The skin grafts stop at the top of his arms where the sleeves were cut.) The summer coveralls are no warmer than wearing denim in my opinion, but prefer the two piece ones as they are far easier to get the correct sizes.

Not being a railway employee I do not know the regulations which is why I asked the original question. Any PPE that is too uncomfortable or makes your job difficult is not as likely to be used correctly. I am not suggesting that full NOMEX coveralls (as used by F1 drivers) and full respiratory mask (due to coal dust) etc. I am sure that would stop steam!!

 

And the RAIB have publish their report and said that the matter is closed. People can talk, express an opinion, for ever, it's not going to get the report changed. It's easy to sit at a keyboard and critisise but as rule55 says, "there but for the grace of God", I know in my working life situations have got a bit hectic and I've been lucky to get away with it. In the Wood Green incident luckily no one was seriously hurt. Incidents happen, it's part and parcel of life.