Identifying a 9F whistle

Hello,

I am a new member, and this is my first posting. At least, I think it is! I just spent half an hour writing it, only to have it disappear into nowhere when I tried to post it, despite being logged in. My apologies to anyone who's received a message like this already.

I have a whistle from a BR Standard 9F and I'm wondering whether anyone can help me identify the locomotive from which it came. I'll keep this message as brief as I can, but it's quite a long story, I'm afraid.

On Sunday 28th April 1968, at the age of 13, I visited the MPD at Speke Junction, which closed just one week later. I fully expected to get kicked out, as had happened at other depots in the past, but on this occasion I was lucky. A fitter approached me and asked what I was doing. I told him I just wanted a last look at the locomotives and I rather cheekily added that I was hoping for some kind of souvenir. To my surprise, he asked me what I wanted, so I aimed high and said I'd like a whistle. He told me to wait where I was, disappeared for a few minutes, and then returned with a very grimy whistle, which he presented to me. He told me the number of the particular engine from which it came (a 9F), but I didn't write it down at the time - possibly because I wasn't sure I'd heard him correctly. I just assumed that when I got home, I'd be able to pick out the right number from the list in my log.

Amazingly, although all my other trainspotting notes have vanished over the years, the original notes for that particular weekend still survive, so I have what is probably a complete list of all the engines that were present at Speke Junction that day. The notes show that when I got home, I added a note that the whistle came from 92069 (I'm sure I added that detail later, because it's in different ink). However, my recollection is that even at the time I wasn't entirely sure I'd picked out the right number.

I now have reason to believe that I must have chosen the wrong one, because it's clear that 92069 remained in service throughout the week after my visit, and I find it very hard to believe that a fitter would remove a whistle from an engine that was still in service, especially when he could have taken one from a condemned loco. I know for certain that 92069 was seen hauling a coal train at Skelton Junction on 4th May, the very last day of operations at Speke, so there's no doubt that she was steamed and continued to work after my visit. My first question is this: am I correct in thinking that no fitter would have removed a whistle from a locomotive that was still in service? Would an engine be allowed out without a working audible warning device?

If the whistle isn't from 92069, which engine does it come from? My log shows that there were nine 9Fs at Speke on the occasion of my visit: 92008, 92024, 92069, 92094, 92160, 92162, 92165, 92218 and 92249. Of those, five remained in service until Speke closed (or later), so I presume my whistle can't have come from one of those. Only four of the 9Fs present had already been withdrawn at the date of my visit: 92008, 92024, 92162 and 92165. The first three of those were engines from other sheds that had been condemned many months previously and were being stored at Speke. The last, 92165, was a Speke engine that had been withdrawn just six weeks before my visit.

It seems likely to me that the whistle came from one of those four withdrawn locos. I think it must have had a number that looked or sounded a bit like 92069, or I wouldn't have recorded that number in my notes.

Over the years, I've polished up the whistle to a reasonably smart finish. However, I've been unable to find any identifying marks or stamps on the brass itself. Having checked on the internet, I'm certain it does indeed come from a 9F. Did all 9Fs have identical whistles or was there more than one pattern?

Have I reached a dead end in this quest, or is there some way in which I might be able to discover which particular engine the whistle belonged to? Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions?

I'd be most grateful for any advice.

Regards,

Tom

 

Hi Tom
That is a puzzle. All 9Fs were fitted with the same type of whistle. Indeed, most of the Standards had the same whistle, the exception being the Brits, Clans, Duke and the early Std 5s, which had chime whistles.
The only way you could possibly identify the loco is to keep an eye out for any photos of 9Fs stored at Speke at the time and see if they had a whistle attached to the manifold on top of the firebox. A long shot, I know.

 

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. You've answered my question about whether all 9Fs had the same pattern of whistle. As it happens, there were no Standards of other classes present - just Black Fives, 8Fs and 9Fs - so at least I can be sure it is indeed from one of the 9Fs.

I like your suggestion of looking at photographs. I have managed to dig up quite a few photos from Speke, including some taken after my visit, but the frustrating thing is that you can't quite see the whistle, because of its position on top of the firebox! The pictures all tend to be taken from ground level at close range, or from so far away that you'd have no chance of making out whether the whistle was there or not. Still, I'll keep looking - you never know what may turn up.

Any thoughts about my assumption that the whistle must be from a withdrawn loco, by the way? I find it hard to believe that anyone would remove a whistle from an engine that might still be required for duties, even if only for a week or so.

Thanks again,

Tom

 

A loco would never go off shed without an operational whistle.

 

Yes, indeed. My (very vague) memory from 43 years ago was that when I tried to identify the number from my notes, it came down to a choice between 92069 and 92165, probably because I thought they sounded similar enough to be confused with one another, but I now have no idea why I eventually plumped for 92069. I have recently been wondering whether the whistle was more likely to come from a recently retired engine (e.g. 92165) on the grounds that it would be less likely to have had its whistle stolen, but the counter argument is that a fitter looking for a redundant whistle would probably go to an engine that had been condemned for a long time in order to avoid the risk that it might need to be pressed back into service in some emergency.

As you say, it's pretty good to have narrowed it down to a shortlist of only four, but that makes it all the more tempting to try and go the extra mile!

If anyone who reads this happens to have any photographs from Speke Junction, ideally taken on or after 28 April 1968, I'd be very interested in seeing them. I'm obviously primarily interested in what they might show of the 9Fs, but I'd be interested in anything from that period, really. I have found some on the internet, but nothing so far that really helps.

My thanks to all who have responded so far. Anyone else have any bright ideas?

Tom

 

This link (below) should take you to an example of what can be found. It's a photograph of 92249 taken at Speke on 12 June 1968, and the angle and scale allow one to see where the whistle ought to be. As far as I can tell, looking at the largest version available, the whistle is missing. However, I'm not sure that means very much. This is one of the engines that remained in service (officially at least) at the time of my visit, and since the photograph wasn't taken until more than a month had elapsed following the depot's closure, the whistle could have been removed at any time during the five weeks or so before this picture was taken:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/168459456/sizes/l/in/photostream/

Tom

 

Is the whistle complete with valve? if so a possibility is that your number is correct but it had been removed due to the valve being faulty and one of the condemed engines that was known to have a good valve was robbed for a replacement unit, so the whistle you have was lying on the fitters bench.

 

Thank you very much for taking the trouble to reply to my post and offer this interesting and convincing explanation. However, my whistle is minus valve. Since posting my original message, I believe I've solved the problem. I went back to my original notes and realised that they are in two different inks. I'm now sure that I actually made two visits to Speke. The first was on the day I originally mentioned. The other can only have been the following weekend, in other words, the weekend when the depot finally closed. Almost certainly, I visited on the Sunday, which I think would have been the 5th - by which time the last locomotives there (including 92069) had definitely been withdrawn. In other words, I've reached the same conclusion as you, but for a different reason. The whistle is indeed from 92069, but what I've only recently come to realise is that I got it a week later than I'd previously thought. Thanks again for your interesting and helpful contribution.

 

I eventually solved this problem, and thought I'd pass on the answer in case it interests any of the kind folk who contributed to my research a year ago. I tracked down and examined quite a few photographs taken at Speke Junction during the summer of '68. I was able to rule out one or two candidates, but it was only when I went back to my original notes and examined them in minute detail that the answer finally came to me. It turns out that I visited Speke Junction again, on the weekend after my first visit. Although I didn't record the date of the later visit, it was almost certainly Sunday 5 May - the very day that the depot closed and 92069 was withdrawn. That explains the different colour of ink referred to in my very first posting. Without going into tedious detail, I am now certain that it was actually on 5 May that I was given the whistle and not (as I originally thought) 28 April. On the later visit, I recorded it as having come from 92069 and added a note to that effect to the log of my earlier visit the previous weekend.

What it all comes to is that the whistle does indeed come from 92069, the very last steam locomotive to drop its fire at Speke, and my original note is therefore correct.

Once again, I thank all those who took the trouble to offer ideas and suggestions. I hope you don't feel that I've wasted your time. I'm very grateful for your assistance.

Tom

 

92069 Speke Jct. 3 6 1968 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

just seen this...

 

Many thanks. This shot of 92069 at Speke awaiting removal for scrap is the closest in time (less than a month) after my visit that I've yet seen.