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Moorlands and City Railway

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Guest, Oct 14, 2009.

  1. nigelss

    nigelss Member

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    Clearly whether or not access has been lawful is a major issue with this application. I did read some "old" byelaws which explicitly state that trespassing on railway property is a criminal offence but only if a number of other conditions have been met regarding signage etc. Sorry I cannot give chapter and verse at this time.

    Para. 7.9 of Staffordshire Moorlands District Council Delegated Decision dated 10th November 2011 on the Staffordshire County Council consultation on a Village Green application, railway line, Endon states -

    "A key factor in the present case is likely to be the status which the land has been under as a railway. The extent to which this may have any bearing on the ability to gain usage ‘as of right’ is no doubt an issue which the County Council will have to consider closely in their determination. It is reported that rail traffic ceased in 1988 but had been limited prior to that after passenger usage ceased in 1965. There are reports of at least one isolated train journey taking place along the route in the early 1990s. However, if there has been no bar on the recreational usage of the land in the 20 year period, as claimed by the applicants, and if the tests are all met then it will be a matter of legal fact that the land has become a green."

    Para 7.10 states -

    "Although the land is understood to have been in the ownership of Network Rail or its predecessor bodies during the time of the claimed recreational access and presumably subject to legislation restricting access (though this too would need to be confirmed) these factors may not necessarily prevent land becoming a green. It will be a matter of the evidence as to the condition, appearance and legal status of the land at the location during the relevant 20 year period as to whether the applicable tests are met for qualification as a green."

    As regards point (3), I did not mean to suggest that there was a planning application associated with the MCR project. It was meant as a general comment but I can see how the misunderstanding arises given the context of the rest of the paragraph. A mistake on my part which illustrates the perils of writing posts in the early hours of the morning!
     
  2. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    Dreadfully sloppy report writing of which I would have been ashamed. I am pretty certain that the passenger service finished in 1956 (not 1965, the author has clearly got confused with the Churnet Valley service from Leek to Uttoxeter). Usage up 1989 (the sand trains) was quite intensive. The 1994 trains were widely reported in the press and there must be masses of dated photographs available.

    Has anyone really taken account of Section 15(6) of the Commons Act 2006 which states:
    "In determining the period of 20 years referred to in subsections (2)(a), (3)(a) and (4)(a), there is to be disregarded any period during which access to the land was prohibited to members of the public by reason of any enactment"?

    "Any enactment" must include the Act of Parliament for the construction and operation of the railway which includes the clause setting out that trespass is a criminal offence. Is the applicant for registration claiming that the removal of trespass signs, whether as vandalism or theft, means that the action of entering onto the land, which they know is an offence, has ceased to be an offence?

    Quite understandably Network Rail has not revealed its position but this application has severe implications for other routes. One that comes to mind is the Leamside line, although I understand that most of the public access there has been for the purpose of stealing the rails! Truly the Commons Act is a terrible lesson in how well-meant legislation can be bent to try to achieve objectives far removed from the Act's intentions.
     
  3. nigelss

    nigelss Member

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    Given the applicant's recent statement that "...the barrister advising Staffs CC agrees that my application meets the three "as of right" criteria ... for an unbroken twenty year period" it would seem that the answer to your question is YES! because to meet the criteria the access could not have been unlawful. I don't know whether or not the applicant knew it was an offence.
     
  4. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    .... and here is a train using the line in April 1994 (see last comment below photo for correct date).

    37417 HIGHLAND REGION ON ONE OF THE LAST TRAINS FROM LEEKBROOK TO CAULDON LOW | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
     
  5. N.StaffsNeil

    N.StaffsNeil New Member

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  6. Tommy83

    Tommy83 New Member

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    railways act 1840

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1840/97/pdfs/ukpga_18400097_en.pdf

    Pay special attention to Paragraph XVI

    And the definition of the word "railway" at the bottom of the last page.
     
  7. nigelss

    nigelss Member

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    Re: railways act 1840

    Apologies - I posted a response and then decided to delete it while I ponder further but there isn't a delete button, only edit, hence this message!
     
  8. Tommy83

    Tommy83 New Member

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    The way I interpret it ... And I'm sure there are many ways to do so.... It is a criminal offence to trespass , and if caught , you are liable to a fine .

    The definition of the word "railway" is also a point to note as I previously stated in my original post .

    "And be it enacted , than whenever the word "railway" is used in this Act it shall be construed to extend to all Railways constructed under the powers of any act of parliament and intended for the Conveyance of Passengers in or upon Carriages drawn or impelled by the power of steam or by any other mechanical power"

    The above paragraph helps with another point that has been argued to death on here and on other forums , the point that the leek brook to stoke line was mothballed , and not closed . The 1840 act covers the line as one of the thousands of miles of railway ever "Constructed" whether it be in or out of use . It has never been deconstructed ( or dismantled) .... My personal opinion .... Every unauthorised person walking on the line is trespassing .

    Feel free correct me or argue the toss .... It's just the way I read it .
     
  9. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Your logic seems pretty sound Tommy, the problem remains though that whilst there are people like Ms Birks ready to try to use the law to get what they want, there are also those in the legal profession who will fall over themselves to get involved in a nice little earner. The fact they privately may know that a snowball in hell is involved in their side, will not stop them from turning down the earner. So once agin the legal people are going to be the ones who earn the most for doing the least.
     
  10. 45669

    45669 Part of the furniture

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    During the period 2001 to 2006 I used to visit Stoke on Trent quite regularly and at some stage during that period I remember reading an article in the local paper warning people to keep off the Stoke to Cauldon Lowe railway line because they were trespassing. As I remember it, it pointed out that the line was not closed and, although not in use at that time, it was still part of the Network Rail (or possibly Railtrack) network. There was talk even then about the possibility of trains starting again to move stone from the quarry.

    Does this count as a warning in the same way that metal signs on posts do? Even though no trains actually started running, if my recollection is correct, it shows that the line wasn't completely dead; Network Rail (or Railtrack) were fully aware of its existance and were not thinking about abandoning it altogether. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    Is there anyone living locally that can remember this newspaper article or who could visit the newspaper offices to see whether they can find the edition of the paper in which it appeared?

    I have no idea whether it would have any bearing on the present situation!
     
  11. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    I vaguely remember the 2000-2001 activites but being a little further away I'm not so familiar as those on the spot, which would of course include Network Rail staff (past and present) and the directors of MCR and CVR. I do recall seeing that the vegetation had been thrashed around that time to an even distance of the track which suggests that a road-railer had been used just like the recent clearance from Leekbrook to Endon.

    I think that we can be sure that this activity by a "rail vehicle" if not quite a "train" will have been taken up by MCR in their objections.
     
  12. Barrykap

    Barrykap New Member

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    It would be nice, due to all our regular rants and concerns about this application, to hear something officially from MCR as to the level of confidence they have in fighting this application. Although I realise they may need to keep a lot of things to themselves on such legal matters. But surely by being more open with reporting progress might encourage more support from the general public?
     
  13. domeyhead

    domeyhead Member

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    A lot of people here are citing valuable evidence of rail use to each other but you are preaching to the converted. THis woman is fighting her battles unopposed in the local media and as we see time and again you don't have to be right to get your way you just have to shout louder than anyone else. Greens are very good at exploiting and inflating the small support they have into far greater influence than they deserve, usually because nobody steps up to challenge the fallacious rubbish that they spout. If you have documentary or photographic evidence or material that refutes her absurd claims get out there and say it! As private individuals you have as much right to airspace as she does. Good luck.
     
  14. SteveTheBoater

    SteveTheBoater New Member

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    One of the odd things in the village green case is that it seems to run contrary to national Green Party's very pro-rail policies on transport, see Green Party | Transport - policies in detail among others. Maybe the national party will take MCRs side against their local group at some point...
     
  15. Barrykap

    Barrykap New Member

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    I thought this was an individual's claim, not one attached to the Green party?
     
  16. SteveTheBoater

    SteveTheBoater New Member

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    Indeed it is but quite strange that as a very active member (she was/is both a Green Party councillor and local branch secretary) she would oppose her party's policies.
     
  17. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

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    She's trying to stop a scheme to increase railfreight and remove lorries from the Staffordshire Moorlands - regardless of her political background it's pretty clear her opposition has nothing to do with being 'green', she just doesn't want heavy freight trains where she lives.

    Proof, if it were needed, that NIMBY's can be of any political persuasion.

    Chris
     
  18. Barrykap

    Barrykap New Member

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    What really makes me very very angry is that she can see quite plainly how much time, cost and heartfelt effort is going into this quite legal 'restart' by lots of genuine and decent people, mostly unpaid volunteers and enthusiasts. Yet this person just wants to spoil it all just for her own miserable satisfaction.

    Give me strength!
     
  19. p/wayman

    p/wayman Member

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    Good day up the Cauldon line today cutting trees again, this time we had a new fangled thing called a chainsaw I think, what an invention. One man and this machine against 3 men and bowsaws, guess who won. Something like 30 to 10 but a good effort by the gallant 3. Pity the remaining 5 men (including me) who were trying to remove all these trees from the line, still it kept us warm in a cool breeze. It certainly opened the south embankment up to allow a bit of sun to help dry out the track by milepost 2 1/2, north of Bradnop tunnel. No photos today having problems downloading the memory card.
     
  20. nigelss

    nigelss Member

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    I did try raising the Green Party policy issue with Wendy Birks back in September as a comment to Rail plan on track despite cash quest | This is Staffordshire. I also tried contacting the Green Party to try to see if Ms. Birks is still active in that direction. Their national hq told me that North Staffs Green Party is not active/not listed. I also sent emails to the last known addresses for the North Staffs and Stafford and Stone Green Party branches but never did get a response. Clearly, the village green application is in direct contradiction to Green Party national policy.

    Just for the record, here's the last comment I posted to that article on September 26th...

    "Belated thanks to Ms. Birks for supplying details of where to get information on the village green application as requested. I would very much like to know if Ms. Birks is still a member of the Green Party because their transport policy as stated on the Green Party website aims to:

    "Give higher priority to railways and plan for a growing railway network."

    "Reduce heavy freight and shift it from the roads to the railways."

    "Expand the rail freight network and make greater use of waterways, where suitable."

    Clearly, submitting a village green application, which will presumably block the MCR project if successful, is not compatible with these policy aims. It is hard to see how the benefits from converting the trackbed into a greenway can compare with the potential wide-ranging economic, environmental and social benefits alluded to in the article by Mike Maryon.

    If Ms. Birks really believes in green issues she will withdraw her village green application and support this worthwhile scheme.

    Written by a Green Party voter in past local, national and european elections.”

    End of quote.

    Ms. Birks did briefly address the green issue on the http://www.facebook.com/groups/supportmcr/ facebook page where there is a very very long discussion about the application. She said "I don't think my application goes against green thinking. Green philosophy is generally geared towards decisions being taken by those who they affect (localism). And the VG issue is a local issue. However I accept that transport policy is a national issue and should be made with the best interests of the majority of the population."

    Having accepted that transport policy is a national issue she then goes on to suggest that the MCR project doesn't count because "...the MCR project is a private business that has not been subjected to the rigors of public scrutiny (except the the RGF money). No one has produced any evidence that, had all their plans gone ahead (to Alton Towers, freight from Lafarge, passenger line etc.) this would have reduced carbon emissions, not had a detremental effect on existing public transport services. etc." There is more which you can read for yourself . Look for the post by Jon Jon Kerr with the picture and link for "Rail plan on track despite cash quest" (sorry - no direct link possible).

    All the relevant documents for consideration should be appearing online on the 2nd November at Browse meetings - Countryside and Rights of Way Panel, i.e. one week before the meeting on the 9th November. Follow the meeting link. Not posted there yet.
     

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