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Manx Northern Railway Cleminson Coaches

Discussion in 'Heritage Rolling Stock' started by Robert-Hendry, Oct 22, 2012.

  1. Ironear

    Ironear New Member

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    What is the current state of play regarding 23 and 26, following this 7th of April Agreement?. Are they in limbo again or is there a plan between you and the DCCL for restoration, be it paid or by volunteers? I can't imagine 26 would take much work to restore for demonstration use, or 23 for display during events?
     
  2. Robert-Hendry

    Robert-Hendry New Member

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    Hi,

    I think I have replied to you with a private email, but if you do not get it, please let me know!

    The 'troubled' time was from 2009 when I was first told that the society represented nine liabilities through to saving two MER vehicles with a user and safe storage agreement until the potential threat vanished in 2022, and getting our Cleminson and No 7 under our control where they are not going to be dumped.

    The Cleminson was the first vehicle I was involved in saving when I was in my twenties. I never thought that I would have to save it from a dumping threat almost forty years later, but when it reached Southwold and was safe and sound from the threat of dumping, I recalled just how thrilled I had been when it was at Ballasalla and we had saved it from being scrapped so long ago. In has been a horrible three and a half years, and what I want to do now is to get on with restoring it.

    My late father suggested it would take ten years to raise the money for the boiler of No 8 and five years to restore it so a centenary year steaming was his goal. With a 10 year user agreement that gave security so we could plan project No 2, and he said we needed to allow another 10/5 pattern. Project 2 might have been a second loco or the Cleminson.

    With a little more sense on the part of the DTL that was in my view feasible. My father suggested No 8 for its centenary in 1994 and project two coming on line in 2009. Because he was very down to earth he did not say "it must be X" when the event was years away, but the front runners were No 9, No 7 or the Cleminson in running order. Hopefully we can get on with it now.

    Robert H
     
  3. Ironear

    Ironear New Member

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    Sorry Robert, nothings come through!
     
  4. Robert-Hendry

    Robert-Hendry New Member

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    Hi,

    When 23 ran in 1983, it attracted some 400 enthusiasts to the Island. AT that time a visitor was assessed as being worth at least £100 to the Manx economy, so in its first year No 23 boosted the Manx economy by £40,000. The Society ran a transport weekend with about 300 tickets sold but the 100 non ticket holders still benefited the Island. Most of what we earned went to the railways in special train hire fees, to meeting halls for evening film shows, and so on, but the main thing was to have this special loco running as an attraction. It ran again in 1984 and attracted perhaps 250 people so that was another £25,000.

    All that needs to be done is to jack the body up, run the unpowered trucks out, push in a set of power trucks from a passenger car and connect the wiring hardness. 23 did have a lot of underbody equipment when we bought it. It was only because we had photos that the DCCL reluctantly conceded that, having sent us a recent shot of an underframe that was devoid of components. Most of the brake rigging, air brake reservoirs, reduction valves, resistance grids, etc have vanished since 1979! A lot of that would need refitting and the DCCL are obliged to do that before 2022. It needs a controller bolting in and the connection blocks made and the trolley pole added.

    Give its rarity it is mad not to run it. The plan we discussed in the early 1980s was that if it runs every year it becomes stale like the Centenary era and the modern Rush hour etc events become. Then you get fewer and fewer people so you need something that is not going to be same again every year. We estimated that a 4-5 year cycle was about right, so the original pan was 1983, 1988, 1993 (Centenary year) 1998 (Ramsey cent) 2003, 2008, 2013. At five year intervals the 400 catchment was perfectly reasonable so that was close on 3000 visitors and a modern day visitor brings in a lot more than the £100 of 1983.

    Like so many imaginative plans it fell apart in the 1990s and the Ramsey Museum was shut contrary to our suggestions for 1992. I have campaigned to reopen it, or to include a museum section at Laxey car shed, and if anyone has ever listened they have just politely ignored it thereafter.

    The April agreement prevents the DCCL dumping the loco on the lineside until after Mr Longworth (who threatened that) retires in Aug 2022. The DCCL has unlimited free usage of the loco at their full discretion. We do not seek any commercial return so it is about as good a deal as you could get. We get nothing. They get everything and have 100% control.

    I have campaigned time and time again to see 23 running and got nowhere. If it does not appear before 2022 the failure will be entirely down to the DCCL. Except when the DTL did not offer insurance or an indemnity in 1993-94, so the society members could be put at risk, we have never opposed its running and the current agreement provides clear provisions re insurance/public liability etc.

    As far as 26 is concerned, it has NO mechanical components or wiring, unlike 23 which ought to be largely complete except for trucks, controllers and trolley pole (but has been robbed at various times). 26 in its freight guise was a trailer and could run in this form, but one of its sisters was what US interurbans called a BOX MOTOR, ie, a motorised parcels car and loco. 26 could be restored as a Box Motor and it would be unique in the British Isles. Again the plan was to run it every five years but in the gaps between 23, so logically we were looking at 1985, 1990, 1995 and 2000. As you can see 1995 with the Snaefell centenary would have been perfect as the car body is identical to the SMR cars and 2000 millennium year would have been a good opportunity.

    I have put the idea forward time and time again, including 2011 and 2012. If it does not run it is no fault of ours. Sadly it needs to borrow equipment from a DCCL car and to run on their railway. I suspect if it was on any heritage tramway on the mainland it would have been running twenty years ago, but as with No 23 we are powerless to influence the DCCL. If they decided to waste the next ten years the agreement does not give us the power to make them see sense. I wish it did.

    As far as the IMR&TPS is concerned we would welcome seeing 23 and 26 running next summer. Do I think it is likely? No I do not. If enough people kick up enough we may get what we want, but the venom heaped on us for an absurd parochialism by a few people undermines any chance of an organised or spontaneous "WE WANT 23 and WE WONT WAIT" campaign.

    Robert H
     
  5. Bramblewick

    Bramblewick Member

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    Excellent couple of posts there. Kudos.
     
  6. jmolyneux

    jmolyneux New Member

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    I think it is fair to say that both Robert & Allen have the interests of the Cleminson & No.7 (plus the MER stock) at heart but disagree on the best way to achieve their aims. I think it is also fair to say that only Robert & the DCCL know the true story of the negotiations over the items and to be quite honest this is something I have no desire to get involved in.

    Securing the future of all of these items should be the first steps (hopefully preserving their identity and acting as representatives for the Isle of Man). I know Allan has said on other threads that he is supportive of the efforts of the Southwold Railway but is passionate about his preference for a solution to be found to keep Manx Railway items on the Island.
     
  7. Robert-Hendry

    Robert-Hendry New Member

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    I’d like to thank Bramblewick and Jmolyneux for their interesting posts and also Ironear for asking about MER 23/26. As I said in my reply I want to see them on show, and almost every time I have met DTL/DCCL management from when they were taken off display, I have suggested this.

    The society ran the Museum at Ramsey from 1979 to 1991, covering the wages and so on, and in a good year the society made a small surplus and in a bad year lost a little, but we provided an attraction at Ramsey. At Port Erin there is a vibrant seaside resort and a museum. When my mother was a child Ramsey was second only to Douglas as a holiday place on the Island, something that is hard to believe today! Ramsey is all but dead for the visitor other than for the Mooragh.

    The idea of the Museum at Ramsey was to provide something in the vicinity of the MER station and we achieved that for twelve years. The problem in 1991 was that the chap who had been the attendant for 2-3 years took ill a week before the opening. My father or I looked after it for the next month but with the season already going it was hard to find someone new at the drop of a hat. We hoped the DTL with its greater resources could cope when they offered to take over. By 1992 they had closed it. It should have stopped open and apart from running at approx 5 year intervals, 23 and 26 would still have been on display.

    By 1998 the Cleminson had followed suit being pushed into store and whenever I have had the chance I have pushed for it to be on display as well, the last time being April 2012. Although our three steam locos had been extorted from us for £1, we still said ‘display this for free’. I am accused on not caring about the Island or the railways or having a spat with the current management.

    Ever since 2009 I have made offer upon offer, “Use this for free, display this for free” and every offer was turned down. There was a signed agreement to run Fenella for 10 years from 2009, and we offered free display of 23/26 and the Cleminson. They were ALL on offer and we did not ask a penny. If Mr Longworth had accepted these offers can anyone say it would not have been better for the Island and the railways? I think the answer is obvious. What other benefits could there have been? We preserved the Queens Pier Tram and that was on show in Ramsey where it rightly belonged and from 1982 to 1991 it made periodic trips on the MER in Ramsey. Now it is stuck in a corner in Jurby, lifeless and we have no say in its future, although we preserved it. I like to see preserved stock running. I remember what a thrill it was to see the Stirling Single running on the GC in the 1980s for the first time since the legendary 1938 railfan trips that were the start of steam specials. I knew the Queens Pier when I was a child and had ridden on it many times, but lots of enthusiasts had not, and when we ran the QPT, it was wonderful to see the pleasure it brought to people.

    The Society is accused of getting good “deals” and lining its own pocket. When we bought 5/8/9 we looked for comparative loco prices and the yardstick was Calbourne of the Isle of Wight. A small tank loco, it was sold by BR for £900 in running order. We pay an average of £1218 for our three locos so that was a third more, but Calbourne was 47 tons as against the 19 tons of the IMR locos and on a pro rata basis the price would have been £391. On either calculation that seemed good for the DTL.

    As far as good deals for the society is concerned, the members cannot benefit. The Society Memorandum & Articles of Association prohibit paying salaries to the directors. They prohibit distributing funds let alone profits to the members. Allan Thomson is right, I do produce books, videos, DVDs and kits some of which have an IOM relevance. I make these available to the society and a note of this interest appears in our annual accounts in accordance with company law. The terms are equal to the best trade rates that are offered to our biggest customers, but that is to reassure other retailers that they do not suffer from an unfair playing field.

    Allan implies that I aim to make money out of everything. I produce kits of MER stock. When we started you could get a white metal kit of a winter saloon or one card kit of a winter saloon in OO. That was it, so MER modelling was a dead duck unless you did everything. Now 25% of the MER Fleet is available in O and OO. I think that helps the MER. Yes I do make a profit on the kits, but the work on a Manx kit is just as much as a non-Manx kit, and pro rata sales of mainland subjects are greater than Manx ones as there is more interest. On cold commercial logic, I would do better spending time on our US interurban kits as they outsell the IOM kits. I think our IOM kits help the Island. It may not make commercial logic, but I’m happy with it.

    Preservation is not a road to riches. I have been involved for forty years and am considerably out of pocket. If I had said ‘If it gets scrapped so what’ I would have saved that outlay and I could have put the time to earning money instead of losing it. I think if our Society had not been around a great deal that has survived would not have existed. We made the difference but it was a team effort. It needed ALL of us, and even then there was a lot that could not be done. If any of the team members had not been there, we might not have got as far as we did. I am not saying “I did it” because it is a team, but the team would have been weaker without any one of us.

    The past three years since the DCCL turned on us have been hell, and I would gladly have avoided that nightmare. In the end we saved 60% of our collection, largely thanks to Nick Black of the DCCL. The result is not as good for the Island as it could have been if Mr Longworth had not launched his Nine Liabilities onslaught against us on the day we met, but now we can plan for a future on the Island and the mainland.

    Was that journey worth it? The only 100% satisfactory boiler on the IMR says yes. The survival of 23, 26, the Cleminson, No 7 and the items that have been extorted from us say yes. The pleasure on people’s faces when they saw the Queens Pier tram or No 23 running say yes. Now we are free of the DCCL, I can get back to what I love doing and that is preservation. I want to get moving on the Cleminson, but years of experience tell me that you examine, you calculate and then do, so I just have to be patient, but when I can look at progress that is going to be a thrill. To see the coach run again will be a thrill. To see people’s expressions will be a thrill.

    I can add another reason. I married late in life and I have three small daughters all of whom are train crazy! At five Anastasia is not clear on the distinctions between the society coach, dada’s coach and her coach. The Cleminson is, in her mind, “her” coach. When it was unloaded at Southwold, she asked “Will the good people help repair my coach dada, so I can ride in it?” I told her “The good people here in Southwold will help repair it, so lots of people can ride in it”. She asked “Will that be next week?” It will take a lot longer than that, but we will get there.

    Mr Thomson says the on-island enthusiasts hate me. He may be right, but if I am hated for playing a role in saving as much as we have saved I think I can bear that hatred with equanimity. If we could have saved twice as much, maybe I would be hated twice as much on the island, and that would be even better. I think we have done good, and if hate varies directly as to the good then the more hate the better.
     
  8. jmolyneux

    jmolyneux New Member

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    On the point about being "hated" by on island enthusiasts I hope I can share the following post made on the IOMSRA website;

    "i'm not sure where the notion that there's poor relationships between the groups comes from, originally it dates back to 1974 when the "isle of man railway society of the midlands" was formed when the area group became defunct following a falling out. documentation exists that explains what happened if anyone is that interested to see it, but it certainly isn't suitable for regurgitating in full on here...

    it would appear that some members have an axe to grind against the rugby-based group, but i can assure that the board and committee of the supporters' association do not."

    Personnally I hope that the last sentence of that is true!
     
  9. Robert-Hendry

    Robert-Hendry New Member

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    I was interested to read of the papers concerning the break up of the IOMSRSA in 1974 but the IOMSRSA will not know that the story originated in the 1940s or perhaps even in 1927!. My father had been MO to the 1st Royal Tanks for part of the war, and he eventually met a fellow railway enthusiast called Dave Kennedy, who like dad, was in the RARO (Regular Army Reserve of Officers). Dave was called up for Korea and dad received notice appointing him to command 1st CCS in Korea unless a serving officer of his seniority and experience became available. One did, so dad remained in civilian doctoring.

    Almost twenty years later Dave Kennedy leased the Isle of Man Railway. You will know him as The Marquess of Ailsa! When Air Marshal Sir Pat Frazer wished to stand down as President of the IOMSRSA, he discussed a replacement with Ailsa. The Marquess recalled my father’s abilities as a team leader and wanted him to take over.

    Pat Frazer nominated him at the IOMSRSA AGM, and to his horror my father got the job. They were all military men, and he was volunteered. Over the next few years he had to defuse repeated rows with the IMRCo, and also between the Island committee and the then thriving area groups which felt the Association was not doing enough. I recently found the papers relating to one of those spats!

    In 1974 a clique in the IOMSRSA decided they wanted to take over and run the railway, and to do that they needed to discredit the IMRCo so a row with the IMRCo was needed. Having a natural peacemaker as President was not a help, so a coup was planned.

    By this time I was a committee member of the IOMSRSA and I attended a committee meeting. Richard Evans, the then chairman wanted nothing to do with the coup and time and again defused the situation, but the plotters then changed tack. In the end I said that as I had a personal involvement it would be hard for them to decide what they wished and I would withdraw.

    The following day and minutes before the start of the AGM, my father was handed a letter that a well known Island resident had agreed to become president. He had not been told the true facts and had resigned within a few months. My father felt a contested election was not desirable so he withdrew.

    A few months later the plotters decided to get rid of Richard Evans and discussed their plans on the afternoon Douglas-Port Erin train. A lady got into the compartment before they left but they continued to discuss their plans which would hardly give a good impression to anyone! As it happened she was the wife of the Vice chairman of the IOMSRSA who was also to be axed! Now that was rotten luck! Despite being forewarned Richard and Alf were eliminated, Richard becoming a valued committee member of our society and playing a key role in the Port Erin Museum and the return of steam trains to Douglas a couple of years later.

    By the time of the first plot to remove my father, we had formed an area group of the IOMSRSA, which achieved a greater surplus in its first year than the entire IOMSRSA did. The Area Group Committee decided the Group would be better off as an independent society.

    The whole story therefore goes back to the high opinion that a young man formed of my father in the 1940s. You may ask what was the team he led? He created a team worked model railway and the young man was introduced to that team as Dave Kennedy, not as a member of the Scottish nobility. Many years later when he visited our home, he walked straight upstairs and unerringly to the station and discussed the changes since his day.

    My father always sang the praises of the IOM and its railways and I have often wondered what role his championing the IOM to Dave Kennedy in 1947 played some twenty years later. I was not born until 1948 so was too young to work alongside the marquess on the railway, but he was a charming man and we owe him a lot.

    On page 76 of my book, The North Western at Work, there is a photo of the legendary Rugby signal gantry, but what does this have to do with the IOM? On the top deck of the gantry is the chief signal fitter for the Rugby District, Frank Renshaw. He guided my father as a young man on railway signalling and engineering and introduced David Ailsa to the model railway! My father was guided by Frank from 1927 when he was still a schoolboy.

    I think that all the plotters of 1974 have now passed away, so it would be invidious to name names as they cannot defend themselves, so I have only mentioned those who were not involved in the plot by name. It would be nice to think that peace could break out as jmolyneux says.
     
  10. lostlogin

    lostlogin Member

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    I for one am very interested. Not so much with regard to the slanging match but with regard to trying to understand if any of these preserved items are likely to be restored, what would would be the best/most likely way of that happening and if there is any way of supporting. I write this as an Island resident and ex member of the IoMSRSA

    I have to admit that I would love to see some of the items restored but it does disturb me that despite Mr Hendry's protestations he seems to have done nothing with them for a long time. It does not give you much confidence that just becuase they are off Island anything will change I may be doing Mr Hendy a dis-service but it does feel that his organisation is little more than his own private affair rather than a preservation society as the majority of us would understand. I have never known such a society where it is very hard to find anything out about it including how to join, assist and donate. Even when given the opportunity to publicly advise readers of this thread how they could become associate members he appears to have chosen not to want to do it. As for his comment about asset stippers that seems a load of old baloney especially when he later describes the constituion is set up in a way so that basically this can not happen

    As I said I may be doing Mr Hendry a dis-service and I also recognise that if the assets are his assets that like it or not they are his to do with what he wants. If I owned the Mona Lisa I would be prefectly entitled to hang it above my toilet and flick bogeys at it when having a ****. If he wants to keep them for himself and do whatever he wants with them then fine. just tell us and carry on. However if he really wants his organisation to be seen and treated as a preservation society which will attract members, help and funds could it at least start acting like one so that some of us with no axe to grind could if we wanted to actually think there was a way of make a contribution.

    That is actually want I find so frustrating. There is a actually a society out there that in principal seems to be one whose aims are generally those I would like to help and support but I can not as they do not act as if they want support.
     
  11. Robert-Hendry

    Robert-Hendry New Member

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    Hi,

    Many thanks for your message.

    The issue has generated considerable heat and some unpleasantness, but is a matter of legitimate public interest. There is a vast amount of disinformation, such as the nonsense about converting the coach or the chassis of No 7 into Southwold lookalikes. It would be cheaper to start from scratch in either case!

    As far as I am concerned if I can answer sensible queries and deal with disinformation I am glad to do so, and I picked up a couple of useful addresses re makers of replica makers plates as well.

    In an ideal world none of this would happen but in an ideal world nine important historic pieces of stock would not be called nine liabilities and threats would not be made of dumping them for vandals to trash.

    What I should like to do is to move on. After fourteen years of getting nowhere over the Cleminson, we can start to move. When it is running maybe it will convince the IOM politicians that the DCCL attitude towards 23 and 26 of 'do nothing' is cuckoo. Personally I think that the sooner we get the Cleminson running the sooner we will force a change of attitude over 23, and I know that lost of people share my wish to see 23 run again.

    I will gladly answer any question I reasonably can. I say reasonably as there may be issues that are confidential, but I will do my best.

    Robert
     
  12. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    How do I become an associate member of your society.
     
  13. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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  14. Robert-Hendry

    Robert-Hendry New Member

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    In response to lostlogin.

    He repeatedly refers to Mr Hendry’s assets, ‘his assets’ and he can ‘do whatever he wants’. The preserved stock we are considering belongs to the Isle of Man Railway & Tramway Preservation Society Ltd, IMR&TPS, and in initial form that is no longer than the IOMSRSA. Until the split of Groudle away from the IOMSRSA, did we refer to Mr Cubbon’s engine or coaches? We would not have done so because it was childish and discourteous to Bill Cubbon for whom I have great respect.

    I cannot do whatever I want with ‘my assets’ as they are not mine, but belong to the IMR&TPS. Any proposals must go to the board for consideration. Recently I drafted some proposals and invited their views. One member suggested a different approach. I felt his ideas were better and arranged a board meeting specifically to meet his fairly hectic commitments. I believe my original ideas were good. I think his were better. If another of my colleagues betters either idea, that is what a board is for.

    In some ways I am in the position of the general manager of a railway company in the old days, putting his proposals before a board of intelligent and experienced people. They will consider those ideas and they may accept them, reject them or modify them, but they have scrutiny. I then have to implement that policy. I am incredibly lucky to have such outstanding colleagues and the fact that we have saved 60% of our collection is a tribute to their determination and ability. It has been teamwork.

    As to doing nothing, as I explained in another post we saved the Cleminson coach in 1975 and as treasurer I had to find the money needed for static restoration and often had less than £100 in the society account after bills were paid. Static display was regarded as temporary, but a series of items came under threat from 1974 to 1982 and we lived from hand to mouth. We decided to restore No 8 to running order. Some people talked about doing that for £900. In the late 1980s IOM Railways talked about £16,000. We estimated £35,000. The actual cost was £36,215. It took us a decade to raise that money.

    If you throw money at several projects, you accomplish nothing, so after a desperate spell saving things, we concentrated our efforts on one item, and No 8 should have entered service in 1994 but did not. A Tynwald select committee investigated this and offered to mediate. We accepted but the DTL refused unless the Select Committee went back to Tynwald to have its powers widened so they had no choice but to go to mediation! The Select Committee could do nothing and reported this with regret.

    Until we had a secure long term future for a project in which we had invested tens of thousands of pounds, we could NOT embark on another project with the DTL. Such an agreement was signed on 1 April 2009 and the present Director of Transport tore it up.

    At no time for twenty years has there been a secure environment in which to plan long term, thanks to the short-sighted policies of the DTL/DCCL. The DCCL planned to dump the coach on the lineside, not me. If we had spent £25,000 on the coach we could have seen that money wasted as it rotted or was vandalised. That is not prudent.

    The coach arrived at Southwold on 15 October, which is ten days ago. We negotiated for fourteen years with the DTL/DCCL over a future for it and ended up with a dumping threat. Now we are free of the DCCL, we can start to do things, and I would like to start cutting wood today, but we need a proper survey so we do the work in a sensible order. The Board has allocated £25,000 towards the project as a first phase. A consultation paper has gone to our colleagues in Southwold and is being studied by them. We hope to place one or two small contracts before Christmas and will keep the forum members informed.

    Justlogin says the comments about asset strippers are ‘a load of old baloney’. They are not. I trained in accountancy and law, specialising in company issues. In the USA, asset strippers HAVE raided a number of rail related corporations, small and large, with catastrophic results. There is one English case I am aware of but for legal reasons cannot name. Asset Strippers work without regard to the members of the company they attack. They do not care about the damage they do. They just follow their own interests.

    Usually they think in millions, but smaller predatory raids do take place more often than you would imagine. You select a target where control can be obtained cheaply. You do so and then filter off the assets to your own benefit. We cannot pay directors fees, but there are many other ways to ‘milk’ a company. Consultancy fees are one, and they can swallow tens of thousands of pounds.

    I led an audit team responsible for scrutinising the affairs of a business with assets in excess of £100m. To do my duty, my team and I needed to recognise such techniques. The professional magazines recorded the ingenuity of those who would enrich themselves at the expense of others. It made depressing reading!

    One of my team started an affair with a member of the client’s staff, and as she was very pretty, I can’t blame him, but it meant there was a theoretical risk of collusion. I do not think his interests were that way orientated, but it broke our professional guidelines and I had no choice but to remove him from that assignment. Vigilance must be eternal.

    When the Society Board became aware of a potential threat from asset strippers, they took action to protect the interests of our members and our historic assets. It may or may not have been necessary but a risk existed. Removing the young man from my audit team was probably unnecessary, but he was professional enough not say it was old baloney. He understood the reasons when I explained them to him. A potential risk existed so he knew I had to act. In theory I should have reported him to my boss. Instead I said the audit was winding down, so I could reduce my team. That avoided a black mark against him, and I have never regretted finding that way out for him.

    Another contributor has asked about how one can support the Society and I will answer that there rather than repeat myself.
     
  15. Robert-Hendry

    Robert-Hendry New Member

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  16. Robert-Hendry

    Robert-Hendry New Member

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    Hi, you will have seen the nonsense about apples and oranges. I had started a reply to you, but as the allegation was false, I had to treat it as more urgent.

    I also want to get on with discussing replica makers plates, now we have some contacts but with that sort of stuff I cant. I'll cover things as soon as I can which may be in 500 years time!


    Robert
     
  17. jmolyneux

    jmolyneux New Member

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    To be fair to Mr Hendry this thread was started as an appeal for help with restoration of the Cleminson and therefore I feel it is right to highlight this request for support by quoting the above section of the original post.

    Mr Hendry has also kindly supplied me with details of how to become an associate member of the society and with Mr Hendry's permission I would be glad to supply the details on this page (or a seperate thread). The only criticism I will make of the Isle of Man Railway and Tramway Preservation Society is that it has a very low profile and that is a great shame.

    Mention has been made on this very thread about the need for funding and support and if people cannot find information on how to join or support them then funding will continue to be a challenge.

    I am sure that many people will support the efforts of the society to restore the Cleminson and No.7 and that includes people who have been critical on threads such as these.

    Again I would point out that this thread was started as an appeal for help from Mr Hendry to assist with the restoration.

    (Oh and by the way I am very proud to be Manx!)
     
  18. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    Robert apart from referring to "you" rather than the IOMR&TPS (which was a genuine mistake for which I apologize) could you please specify which " allegation " is false?
    I note that you used the base value of the pound as the basis of your comparison rather than scrap value. During the period 1968 - 1974 the increase in the price of scrap,particularly copper,was many times that of the retail prices index so,again you have not made a fair comparison.
    I await your reply and then I'll shut up and let others judge.By the way as someone who has been involved in railway and other restorations both in the U.K. and on the IOM for over 40 years could I respectfully suggest that the structure of the Cleminson is a more important starting point than a maker's plate. Ray.
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Hang on, in the time it took to post that reply, surely you could simply have given the answer: something like "send a cheque for £X, payable to Y, to this address, and in exchange you get the following benefits..." Instead, you spent more time basically saying "I've got better things to do".

    I don't have an axe to grind; indeed the closest I have ever been to the IoM is the beach at Formby, and I know next to nothing of the railways - much less the politics - of the island or its various preservation societies. But one of the charges made being levelled against you and your society is that it seems to be excessively secretive. When asked the question "how do I join?", you spent longer saying "I'll let you know but now I am busy" than it would have taken to answer "here's how". That hardly dispels that accusation of secrecy.

    Ultimately, why should I care about the history of some obscure old carriage, or perhaps contribute to its restoration, when the custodians of said carriage seem not to want me to contribute by way of joining the society? Why not try and sell the benefits of membership to me, rather than appearing to do the complete opposite?

    Tom
     
  20. lostlogin

    lostlogin Member

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    I would not worry. Whether the assets are owned by Hendry or a company he might hold a substantial interest in or control and be a director of is purely semantics. I am sure he is aware of that.

    On a personal basis I do not care if the assets are part of a private collection or a public society. I just hope that they are looked after, restored and cared for. There is nothing to say that a public society is better than a private concern in doing that or vice versa. As an example I think that Statfold Barn are doing a superb job with their collection.

    All I would like to see is that if any party is holding itself out as a preservation society then it should act in a way that the majority of us would expect. e.g. easily obtainable details about the society, what it does, how to join, support, welcoming interest etc. Alternatively if you are just a private concern just say so. There is no harm in that.

    Purely coincidentally I was looking at the museum of Liverpool website earlier and came across this about Lion “She was sold to Mersey Docks and Harbour Board in 1859 for £400 and they used her as a stationary pumping engine at Prince's Dock”. If we are looking at the cost of locos and time value of money I wonder how that would fit in to Mr Hendry’s equation. Probably at the expensive end if you also consider what the TR paid for its Corris engines. Maybe we should also through in the FR’s Lynda which I think cost £1,500 in the early 1960s
     

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