Betton Grange

So much I could say here.......but to avoid the thread being locked I won't

Because its good entertainment....

 

And that's just financial. A number of us have also put time and effort into the project in the past.

Plus the majority are not really 'moaning' but more looking at the reality of things and wondering whether all the promises/targets are actually achievable. Afterall, the two targets that were set for 2012 have both been missed despite people being concerned at the last AGM that they were optimistic. However we were all told not to worry, and now even though the targets have been missed it has been announced for £350k we will see 6880 steam in 2016.

Interestingly though there was no mention of this to the members in their recent newsletter, such information being saved solely for the mags! This is despite the Board apologising at the last AGM for supplying the mags with more information than it does to its own members, and then promising to ensure this does not happen in the future. Well that lasted long! I can understand the odd exclusive, but over the last couple of years we have learnt more from Steam Rly / Heritage Rly than we have from our own newsletter / Board. And this recent omission of the £350k figure from the latest newsletter is slightly concerning, why is it not important to tell the members such information but its ok for the general public to know?

If you think I'm using this forum to simply moan as well don't worry, I have contacted Q / Rich / David / Paul with my concerns and sent them a much stronger worded e-mail highlighting issues listed on here and more. Whilst I agree they work tirelessly in their own time, if we see areas of concern surely as members we are entitled to raise these? I myself am willing to support 6880, but that does not mean I have to agree with everything that goes on with her.

A number of us have been part of the project for a number of years now, and so know a lot more than we let on on here. Plus such discussions are not just limited to 6880, it is occurring over on the SVR Share Issue Thread for example where long standing members are questioning parts of the latest proposals. Its not simply being negative, its having a grasp of reality and being concerned that some aspects of a project aren't what is required.

Jon

 

I agree you can complain if you are unhappy with the way things are being managed, But why do it on a public forum ?.. surely you should do this directly to the board. Constructive criticism is always accepted in my experience.
I don't know if you actively help with the project by helping at their events or helping work on the loco build but again in my personal opinion this is not only rewarding but puts more credibility behind any criticism you may have. People who sit back and moan without helping are of no use and can be seen to be too negative. Giving money to help complete the project is commendable,and if you are physically unable to help then that's fine but if you are physically able and don't help then don't moan.

 

Can't say I agree with what you say, I still feel that airing issues on a public forum is he wrong way to do things. Everyone is allowed an opinion and not everything is done the way we want it done.
i personally feel that all the projects have there issues but I don't doubt the 6880 members and board will do their very best to get the 81st Grange in steam for 2016 .... You say you are an active member? Well if that is the case then I am sure you will give all the money and time you can spare and not discourage potential new members from joining with negative comments on this forum.
i look forward to seeing 6880 in steam myself

 

I think that is a stupid comment, if you are a serious enthusiast then you would not make jokes about important projects. People like you discourage others from joining projects.

 

I have not stated that I was complaining. All I said was that I was entitled to complain, having a financial interest in the project.
In addition to the money invested I also allowed the free use of my 'Queen Mary' brake van at the last gala, which raised several hundred pounds, plus agreed to a reduced fee
for using the 'Elizabethan' buffet lounge car , which also made a small fortune in beer & beverage sales.

Bob.

 

To paraphrase an earlier post of yours - "That's a stupid comment"

 

In my opinion if you are a member of the project then I would expect that you support them by allowing them to use your brake van etc free or at a reduced rate,that's what this is all about isn't it? Supporting our projects.

you may not think posting negative comments on a forum is complaining and maybe you are correct,I apologise for my error in the language I used. I should have said moaning !!!! Because that's how it reads.
There seems to be lots of questions posted on this forum about 6880 surely they would be better placed sent to the 6880 board where they could be answered comprehensively and correctly without hearsay and conjecture. This is just my opinion I know positive comments and news always wins over negative conjecture

 

Well you are entitled to your opinion, you obviously don't agree with actively helping with projects when and if you can,that's your prerogative but hard to understand

 

Agree with a number of your sentiments, every society up/down the UK be it a railway / nature / whatever based activity will all have their own politics and each individual will have their own opinion on ways of doing things. I also don't doubt for a second that those involved with 6880 will do their personal best to achieve the 2016 target.

This however does not guarantee that the target will be met, and neither does it prevent people from having concerns about certain aspects of the project. I have no doubt we will see 6880 steam one day, and I am looking forward to my first ever ride behind a Grange. Whether that day will be in 2016 though has been questioned above, and I myself stand in this camp. Yes 2016 is achievable so long as we raise enough, but is our current income going to achieve the required amount?

Currently the definitive answer is no, hence all the ads in the recent mags and request for sponsorship of selected parts within the newsletter stating the importance of increasing income. Whether this is enough time will tell, but hoping to raise £350k in 3yrs is optimistic and is one of the biggest concerns myself and a number of other members have raised such as one of Bob's previous posts. We are not doubting the ability to complete the Grange, but questioning the targets being set. As mentioned above both of 2012 targets were not achieved. Who's to say this one will?

 

I read that as 'donating money is commendable, but if you are physically able and don't help then you have no right to criticise'.

Well excuse me, but if I donate hard earned cash towards a project I believe I have every right to question how it is used. Furthermore, you can have as many willing pairs of hands as you like, but without finance they ain't going to get very far.

As it happens, I do a fair bit of both, but I can't be everywhere, so some projects get the cash, and others get the labour, but all are subject to scrutiny.

 

I'd go further than that: not everyone has practical mechanical engineering skills (I know I don't) and in any case, the buildings that such locos are being built in are only a certain size and can't accommodate more than a small number of people all working on a loco at once. If I had to bet on which would run first - a project with 500 donors giving cash from a distance and ten active workers; or one with 500 active workers and ten cash donors, I'd bet on the one with 500 donors to get finished first any day of the week.

Tom

 

Just checking, £350,000 to complete? As far as I can see, the frames are progressing, the driving wheels are nearly done, the front bogie has a few bits missing, and, err, that's it. Boiler to overhaul, cylinders to be made, tender to be built/refurbished?

 

Excludes the Tender apparently, though this has not been confirmed/denied.

All the other parts you mention are required, and I think here are bits of the motion missing too. We have acquired a number of motion parts secondhand, but these will still need refurbishing. The machining of the Con-Rods for example is quoted as £6k each, and we are still to fully pay for these as well with each one costing a further £7k. Soon adds up!

 

£350,000 to finish it - yeah right.

I would be suprised if the boiler cost any less than that. The boiler has been sat around for 45 years that means every steel stay will need replacing, plate work that has wasted over the years will need replacing, cracking of platework requiring doubling patches, new tubes and elements etc.

The cost of the materials wont be massive but its the £40+ an hour that you pay for the people working on it that adds up.

With an average income of what I believe to be £25,000 a year its hard to see how they will get £350,000 on 4 years

Mike

 

I suspect just about any worthwhile complex project in the world runs through stages that frustrate or irritate people, and its awfully tempting to sound off about what seems to be poor thinking or planning. Goodness knows I do enough of that at work at the moment... But with on line forums, well, I *try* and say to myself before I post things, "could this make things worse without much chance of making things better?". And I reckon its fairly easy to damage a project that I care about with public on line chat, but fairly difficult to make things better. So I try and ask myself "should I really want to say this", no matter how irritated I am and sometimes I have to go back and delete things when I've calmed down. Because deep down, no matter how badly I feel some bunch might be stuffing things up, I don't want to make things worse if I think the underlying aims are worthwhile. Of course its easy for me to say this here, barring a few shares in another project I have no skin in the railway preservation game and no emotional involvement.

 

I agree with some of your sentiments but the things I would point out are :-
No project has all the money they need and have to ask for funds in what ever way they can,surely increasing income is a given otherwise the loco will not get finished
All projects have a target and we all try to be as realistic as possible
Members need to give what they can and increase their contributions when possible
There are no certainties in this life, those who are prepared to try should be applauded.

 

I have followed this thread with obvious interest and do find myself agreeing with Bacofoil's post above (Post 178).

I know a phenomenal amount of volunteer effort has been given to the Project over the years. Sadly a lot of this effort has been without the recognition it deserves or deserved. A simple, yet sincere thanks is required and it is these small tokens of gesture that encourage people & members to stay focussed with a project.

However passionate one is towards a goal, sometimes the lack of disposable income can exclude an individual taking an active role. In today's climate, it can cost a lot to travel, even relatively short distances. Many people, I have known are financially embarrassed to admit this. Just because members cannot travel or financially contribute they should not be excluded.

In many walks of life, bridges have been broken; a few of these will never be rebuilt. However repairs can be made in many cases and the first steps are led from the top by example and with proper communication. A simple, yet sincere thank you can go a long way.

The 6880 team were respected by so many because they had fun, passion and still got the job done. Lets hope this spirit can be re-ignited. Perhaps the imminent AGM will be a good start.

 

If you look at the boiler history, 7927 former boiler no. 6260 only saw 5 years service. Agreed its been sat around for a long time in 'barry' condition, but until an inspection is completed we wont know just how much work is required. We may be lucky, you never know!
Standard No. 1 Boilers

Annual income through subscriptions & donations for 2011 was actually £37k, an increase from 2010s' earnings of roughly £10k! So you would hope that income would continue to increase. A major difference though is that in 2011 we saw significant progress with the manufacture of the extension frames, and real significant progress is the biggest way of attracting interest and further donations. This was confirmed by the Board, in that they all commented upon the additional donations they had received once the news broke of the extension frames.

For 2012 in comparison, excluding SSS3, the biggest news items shown on our website was that the wheels (which we are now not going to be using on 68) were re-tyred & received a lick of paint, and that we now have 6880 umbrellas available to sell on the sales stand. Not the same sort of progress really, and unlikely to generate the same level of interest.

The mags have said she will be a rolling chassis in early 2013, and there is a small hint of this in the November update on the website. This will be a significant milestone for the project that will draw interest in the project once more. But at the last AGM we were promised this was one of the year's targets, and that it would be completed by SSS3. Clearly this didn't happen, though admittedly the delay/issues with the wheels didn't help as they were only returned in July this yr. Taking this into consideration it will be interesting to see how much support is given once the rolling chassis milestone is achieved compared to the support received in 2011.